Sign in to follow this  
martin-w

Intel Skylake CPUs are bending due to cooler mount pressure!

Recommended Posts

Just a heads up gentlemen, as it's not been mentioned on Avsim

 

A few weeks ago, a report from German "PC Games Hardware" highlighted a potential issue with Skylake CPU's and third party CPU coolers. 

 

Due to the reduced thickness of the CPU substrate, Skylake CPU's can bend due to cooler mounting pressure. The mechanically weaker CPU, its pins and the motherboard contacts can all be bent and sheared by the pressure exerted by cooler clamping mechanisms.

 

At the moment it seems that its just Scythe coolers that are  effected. Namely the  Ashura, Mugen 4, Mugen 4 PCGH-Edition, Fuma, Ninja 4, Grand Kama Cross 3, Mugen Max and Kotetsucan.

 

Owners of the coolers above should contact Scythe for a free replacement screw set.

 

Intel confirmed that they have been made aware of the issue and are investigating. Intel say they don't test CPU's with third party coolers, but they do recommend a 50lb maximum mounting pressure.

 

To be clear, it's not the weight of the cooler that's the issue, it's the mounting system that is exerting too much pressure. However, obviously a heavier cooler will exacerbate the issue.

 

​For those with Noctua coolers. Noctua say they run a gamut of tests on all new CPU's to ensure their coolers are compatible, and that the SecuFirm 2 system is unaffected. The same precautions already in place should be adhered to. Namely if you have a large CPU cooler, then don't drag it around to LAN parties, ship it across the country with the cooler attached. And take care when moving your enclosure.

 

ARCTIC: "We want to assure with this official statement that ARCTIC cooler not affected by these problems - and thus are fully Skylake compatible". The company said it adhered to Intel's mechanical specification.

 

EK Water Blocks: "While current water cooler of EKWB are fully Skylake-compatible, the manufacturer advises caution with older coolers," noted PCGamesHardware.de.

 

Noctua: "Our SecuFirm2 mounting systems are subjected to prior to the release of new platforms an extensive compatibility testing" said Noctura. No problems have been reported to Noctura by customers or re-sellers etc.

 

Scythe: This well known cooler company admitted that while "All coolers are in fact generally compatible with Skylake sockets… in some cases result in damage to CPU and motherboard when the PC is exposed to stronger shocks (eg shipping or relocation)."

 

Thermaltake: "All current CPU cooler from Thermaltake, as the Frio Silent series, as well as older models such as the NIC series, the Contac series and the Frio series, and compact water cooling of the types Water 2.0 and Water 3.0, are 100% compatible with socket 1151 processors."

 

Thermalright: "The pressure is pre-defined and accurately based on the specifications of the CPU manufacturer,"said this company. There are no reports of Thermalright cooler induced problems so far.

 

http://hexus.net/tech/news/cpu/88628-intel-skylake-cpus-bending-due-cooler-mount-pressure/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

wow... another one?

allot of issues with 6th gen,

 

still a 50lbs torque is allot; why who’d anyone exceed or even come close to 50lbs torque

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heard about this september last year, mostly happens after delidd and if you mount a ln2 pot very very hard to overcome that the paste cracks when lower than -140c.

Can be someting with intel some CPUs bend when delidd even if Its brand new nerver mounted before delidd.

The CPUs i have had no problems after delidd and a have mounted the pot very very hard.

I know guys that straighten the PCB with a heatgun after delidd with great sucsess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know guys that straighten the PCB with a heatgun after delidd with great sucsess.

that’s because they never heard of Loctite and obviously have no idea what they’re doing,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that’s because they never heard of Loctite and obviously have no idea what they’re doing,

Wahaha ...

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3016421/hardware/msis-cpu-guard-aims-to-keep-your-skylake-chip-from-bending-under-pressure.html


MSI have a sollution. A metal guard.

 

 

Interestingly, PC Gamer encountered the issue with one of two all in one water coolers. Either the EK XL Predator or Corsiar H90. It occured when they were moving the systems around their office. They weren't sure which cooler it occurred with. They did comment thogh that they had used an electric screwdriver. Although they had done this previously with other CPU's without issues.

 

qOwWpL6-sgaV.878x0.Z-Z96KYq.jpg

 

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/intel-skylake-cpus-are-bending-under-the-pressure-of-some-coolers/

 

 

Either some third party cooler manufactures are exceeding the 50 lb limit, or Intel need to revise the limit. 50 lbs is the same maximum pressure as previous Intel CPU's, despite the Skylake substrate being thinner.

 

If anyone is building A Skylake system, be careful chaps. Don't be tempted to over torque.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wow... another one?

allot of issues with 6th gen,

 

still a 50lbs torque is allot; why who’d anyone exceed or even come close to 50lbs torque

 

 

 

It's not 50 lb torque. Torque is measured in newton metres or pound-foot.      

 

It's 50 lbs of pressure. Still sounds like a lot but I think that's probably deceptive Chris. When you torque anything down the pressure increases markedly. But as I say, it's not a torque figure. 

 

In my opinion the issue is with over zealous owners, who over tighten the mounting mechanisms. There haven't been any reports of issues from the likes of Noctua etc. Not surprising because it's very difficult to over tighten the mounting mechanism.  It actually stops turning when sufficient torque is applied. It seems to be mounting systems like the Scythe HPMS that  can actually be overtightened far beyond that which is required.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the NDH 15 and transport the PC to flight sim meetings on a monthly basis. Will see how long it takes to break.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's 50 lbs of pressure.

got it, in that case i believe it’s the PCB center point they measure with pressure while all 4 corners are supported,

the question if its only downforce pressure they cover in those specs or sideways pressure as well?

 

 

the PCB broke off in this picture because there's no bracket below it; or if there was it wasn’t the right height,

if you build your pressure with a gap present what do you expect?

 

in case im looking at this the wrong way; the whole board should have warped with the cpu,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

got it, in that case i believe it’s the PCB center point they measure with pressure while all 4 corners are supported,

the question if its only downforce pressure they cover in those specs or sideways pressure as well?

 

I believe 50 lb's is the maximum force any part of the IHS, and thus the substrate beneath, can be subjected to. So clearly, a heavy cooler with a less than well engineered mounting system, might sag and increase the pressure at the bottom of the IHS, thus exceeding 50 lb's. It wouldn't be by much I suspect, but if the mount is over-tightened to the point that it's close to the max the substrate can take, then the extra force provided by a combination of gravity and impact would be damaging.

 

Essentially it's compresive static load, but impact results in a compressive dynamic load which does the damage.

 

That's my take on it, I may of course be talking rubbish.

 

 

in case im looking at this the wrong way; the whole board should have warped with the cpu,

 

No, I don't believe so. The motherboard is firmly screwed to the motherboard tray, so motherboard bending is unlikely. What did happen, and I'll see if I can find the image, is that the CPU PCB didn't just bend, it was pushed into the motherboard socket itself, bending the pins.

 

 

I have to say, I'm still of the opinion that this issue is a result of a combination of a badly engineered mounting system and overzealous tightening. The manufacturer effected got away with it prior to Skylake but now they can't.

 

I'm told that the HPMS system can literary be tightened as much as you like. Scythe have conformed that it's their older coolers that are the issue, not so much the latest Skylake certified coolers.

 

I suspect that those of us with large tower coolers from makers who well engineer the mounting system, that take care when moving their rig's, shouldn't have an issue. There have been reports of possible issues with AIO's, but Corsair seem to think their coolers are unaffected.

 

This was the motherboard image I was referring to...

 

 

 

 

1e9a6224-119c-4a19-a058-3f1497e25d63.jpg

 

 

 

http://www.techrevu.com/php/Review-id.php?id=6574

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the NDH 15 and transport the PC to flight sim meetings on a monthly basis. Will see how long it takes to break.

 

 

I suspect you'll be okay Howard. Noctua say they thoroughly tested the D15 with Skylake, and the SecuFirm 2 system is just about the best. Take care though, avoid bumps and bangs.

 

 

This is the full statement from Noctua...

 

Noctua:

“Our SecuFirm2 mounting systems are subjected to prior to the release of new platforms an extensive compatibility testing. It could be determined with reference to the Intel LGA1151 platform (“Skylake”) no problems. Also on the part of our customers and our specialist resellers and system integration partners we have no reports of any problems. Our SecuFirm2 mounting systems access (with the exception of some more compact models of the L-series) for generating the necessary contact pressure on coil springs back, which allow a certain degree of flexibility both in terms of tolerances in the height as well as the case of vibrations or other forces. Compared with conventional spring-less installation systems where pressure is produced exclusively by the deformation of the mounting brackets, so can reduce the mechanical load on the CPU, and motherboard socket and any damage can be prevented by excessive force.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it would be interesting to have the units full story of how this came about,

in the last image you posted you clearly see an additional imprint on the other side;

 

I imagine this pc box fallen to the ground from a minimal table height,

It landed unevenly on its bottom or the bottom edge; the initial drop popped open the cheap cpu latch;

Then a second tumble to its final rest position on its side; with the weight of the cooler pulling down on the half loosened cpu,

you clearly see from both corner imprints of the cpu into the pins; didn’t happen while the cpu was in place,

or from evenly applied downward pressure; or else all the pins should have been bent as well!

makes sense?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can only see a deformation where the arrow points, but who knows. Nobody has reported latches popping open. PC simply malfunctions and on further inspection the damage is seen. 

 

So far it's only coolers without spring retention systems that have demonstrated issues. Decent coolers with spring retention systems can absorb the excessive forces.

 

Anyone purchasing a cooler for Skylake, should make sure the mounting mechanism has a spring retention system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can only see a deformation where the arrow points,

have a closer look please

 

image.jpg

 

1e9a6224-119c-4a19-a058-3f1497e25d63.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
have a closer look please

 

 

 

I don't think that's a deformation Chris. It's just the lighting. If you look at the pins they are in line. If you look at the deformation with the arrow the pins are out of line. look for the horizontal alignment of the pins, that's how to spot the deformation.

 

May be wrong, but nothing was mentioned in the article about a deformation in that location. If there were, they would have indicated so with a second arrow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why did Intel make it thinner? To cut costs?

 

Could be a number of reasons...

 

Fewer PCB layers as a result of...

 

No more fully integrated voltage regulator, so reducing the number of PCB layers used as power lanes.

 

14nm, that might be related.

 

And yes, perhaps cost.

 

 

Cryorig have this to say...

 

We at CRYORIG have the following information and statement to make, regarding the recent news and discussion regarding damaged PCB’s on Skylake CPU’s, which many in the industry believe is caused by abnormal heatsink mounting pressure during transportation of the PC system. First of all we want to assure users of CRYORIG products that currently no CRYORIG heatsinks have displayed this problem, either through media reports, third party sales channels or internal testing. CRYORIG heatsinks are fully compatible with socket 1151 processors, and follow specifications set forth by CPU manufacturers. But as a note of precaution we suggest users to lay their PC system flat (with the heatsink in a vertical position) whenever they are transporting their PC system.

Based on the information and testing reports we currently have at hand, although CRYORIG’s own products did not show this problem, we have derived the following suggestions and insight into the Skylake PCB damage problem. From our observation the cause of the bent/damaged PCB is caused by the combination of two factors.

A) High mounting pressure from the CPU heatsink mounting system, with no flexibility in the system.

Increased directional force created by the weight of the heatsink and movement of the PC chassis.

In the cases that have been reported by media, it holds true that these issues have only been observed in “Pre-Built” systems. These systems have the heatsink installed before shipping, which are subjective to both point A+B. Thus if a heatsink already has high mounting pressure with no system of flexibility, heavy weight and is tossed around during shipping, then the force of the heatsink is possible to bend at the softest point. In this case the softest point is the Skylake PCB.

According to our hypothesis, then what makes CRYORIG heatsinks safe? In our own product line we have two different mounting systems. First is the MultiSeg on our heavier products, then there is the X-Bar and MultiSeg Light. The MultiSeg Quick Mount System uses a sturdy Medium Carbon Steel backplate. We chose the Medium Carbon Steel for it’s high tensile strength, which protects the mainboard from bending when using heavier heatsinks like the R1 or H5. In combination with a highly rigid backplate, the spring screw system is what provides the downwards-clamping mounting force. This combination of a tough frame and a relatively softer point of flexibility is the key to why CRYORIG products are not seen damaging the CPU PCB. When extra vector/directional force is exhibited on the heatsink (such as during transport), the softest point in the system always gives. In this case the spring screws will deform to absorb the extra external force, much like a suspension system.

In our lighter products, the X-Bar and MultiSeg Light mounting systems omit the rigid steel backplate for a 30% Fiber Glass PBT. The lighter weight of our H7/M9 and C7 heatsinks creates less stress on the mainboard, which is why the steel backplate is not needed. Also, using a Fiber Glass filled PBT has multiple benefits.

Material Modulus of Elasticity (The Higher the more Rigid)

30% Fiber Glass PBT 15.0 GPa Max

Medium Carbon Steel 213.0 GPa Max

The Modulus of Elasticity for 30% Fiber Glass PBT is 15.0 GPa, while Medium Carbon Steel is 213 GPa. The combination of structural support and elasticity, allows these backplate system to still have a point of flexibility when extra force is exerted. The lighter weight of the product itself also makes it safer when directional force is exhibited.

In all, although caution should always be exhibited when transporting delicate electronics, we want our consumers to feel safe about their CRYORIG product. Our finely tuned mounting kits are safe to use. Moreover, stationary PC’s do not have anything to worry about either.

 

 

Easy to see below why Scythe had an issue. More than DOUBLE the mounting pressure of the NH-D15.

 

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Luftkuehlung-Hardware-217993/News/Skylakegate-Kuehler-zerstoeren-Sockel-1151-CPUs-1179237/3/#a3

 

Intel recommend a maximum dynamic load of 490 Newtons. The NH-D15 scores 380 Newtons. The Scythe cooler hits 770 Newtons.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Martin
forensics analysis on :wink:

first observation, the cpu was not seated in its socket when that happened! (indication of a hard impact loosening the cpu lock first)
the corner imprint of the indentation is made 3 pin rows ahead; you clearly see the cpu wasn’t seated in place!
the cpu socket is not a universal socket; all pins must touch or they wouldn’t be placed there; it’s not an eye candy item,

 

next observation is the appearance of the second triangle at the other end;
again 3 rows of pins ahead; and in line with the deeper indentation shape on the other end,

now if you look at the cpu you will notice only one corner of the PCB got bent and gave away;
while the other maintained its form, the corner that gave away is the faded imprint at top!
the other side that didn’t give made the deeper imprint at the bottom; which is more noticeable,

this is in line with pressure damage of forcefully pulling out the cpu and heat sync while they are locked in place!

Also note there is very specific intends in two corners only; this suggests the cpu was not flat and in place as well,

If the damage accrued by top down pressure; all the pins should observe some degree of indentation,

The corner shape suggest a pull out action; not down force pressure;

The down force was created by the pull out action and the corners of the pcb that remained jammed in the cpu cage,

as for why more info is not available; that’s easy to explain :smile:
if the owner can pass this as manufactured defect he gets a replacement units from the cooler manufacture and intel,
if he admits he dropped the box he is responsible for the costs,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The original image was from Hexus by the way. You can see it better over there.

 

http://hexus.net/tech/news/cpu/88628-intel-skylake-cpus-bending-due-cooler-mount-pressure/

 

first observation, the cpu was not seated in its socket when that happened! (indication of a hard impact loosening the cpu lock first)

 

 

 

You are forgetting Chris,  we are dealing with cooler mounting systems that have a back-plate! The back-plate is bolted to the retaining mechanism on the front. The CPU is sandwiched in place. It can't move even if the CPU latch flips open.

 

 

The socket/CPU is under tension, above Intel's specs, no spring retention system to absorb the excessive forces. Thus, something has to give, and the weakest link, the softest target, is the socket. The CPU corner [the weakest place] is pushed in toward the socket as a result of an impact, bump, during transit. 

 

 

 

If the damage accrued by top down pressure; all the pins should observe some degree of indentation,

 

 

 

No Chris... "top down pressure" although above Intel's specs isn't the issue. No damage has been observed in regard to static load [PC stationary] The only damage that has been observed has been in regard to "dynamic load", while moving the PC.

 

PC is bumped or banged, increased downward forces come into play and the cooler [a rather large and heavy lever] bares down and pushes the bottom of the cooler mounting plate into the socket. The corners of the CPU receive the brunt of the bending because it's the weakest place, more PCB surface area to bend. Don't forget, when bumping banging or dropping the PC enclosure it can be from any angle, directly opposing that angle damage will accrue. the cooler is a lever.

 

 

as for why more info is not available; that’s easy to explain  :smile:
if the owner can pass this as manufactured defect he gets a replacement units from the cooler manufacture and intel,
if he admits he dropped the box he is responsible for the costs,

 

 

 

:smile:  This is nothing to do with "replacements" or RMA's Chris. The image was from Hexus, their investigations into the issue.No one is after an RMA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this