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kneighbour

X-Plane 11 - perhaps hold off a bit

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I have been an X-Plane user for years and fully expect to upgrade to XP 11, so I recently bought the full XP11 version. I know it is a beta, but it has so many obvious bugs I really wish I had waited a bit longer.

 

I have a CH Yoke and rudder pedals and an X-55 throttle. All very standard and known to XP11. It took me AGES to calibrate them. The system crashed 99% of the time after I calibrated an axis. Multiple reboots of XP allowed me to at last calibrate the hardware (I think, I am too wary to go back into those screens).

 

After a few hours spent getting it to load and with a few basic commands in the system, I flew the default Cessna around my home scenery. Pretty awful. While the framerates were about normal (30 or so), the screen was jerky and looked little different to XP10. By this time I was sick and tired of all the crashes, so perhaps I was just worn out. But was not impressed. Also had HUGE weather vaning effects - practically could not take off. Actually took off over the grass as could not keep the plane lined up. XP10 had the same problem quite often. Totally unrealistic and I had hoped that they had fixed this.

 

Anyway - I have just seen so many glowing reports of XP11 I thought I would throw in a contrary viewpoint. If you are on the fence, I would wait a bit longer. One thing I did like - you can simply drag a lot of stuff from XP10 across and it will work. All the scenery seems to work just fine. I understand the aircraft do not. The GUI interface is nice (in some ways), but frankly I don't really care. The old menu system worked just fine and the new one is only incrementally better. No big deal. What I would have loved to see is a good fault trapping system (ie no more CTD) or weird fatal errors. That and the framerates issues are really the only 2 things I care about.

 

It is so hard to get a decent experience in XP10 (and now XP11, I guess) that fully most of my flight sessions is spent tweaking and monitoring the framerate. The rest of the time I am just on the edge of my seat waiting for an error to happen. In hindsight, and having done hundreds (if not thousands) of flights, a CTD is not that common at all. But it is always there in the back of your mind. But the framerate issue is there 100% of the time, every flight.

 

Ok, rant over. I know it is a beta and am going to wait for the full release before I try anything again. I am pretty confident that things will settle down, so take my comments in the spirit they were meant.

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It is so hard to get a decent experience in XP10 (and now XP11, I guess) that fully most of my flight sessions is spent tweaking and monitoring the framerate. The rest of the time I am just on the edge of my seat waiting for an error to happen. In hindsight, and having done hundreds (if not thousands) of flights, a CTD is not that common at all. But it is always there in the back of your mind. But the framerate issue is there 100% of the time, every flight.

You mentioned 30 FPS are normal for you - isn't that decent enough?

 

Maybe you should just relax and not think so much about FPS or CTD risk (esp. since you made the experience that in your hundreds of flight CTD was not common). I stopped monitoring VAS usage in P3D, too (but I don't use a lot of stuff anyway there.)

 

Also, I wonder why you have CTDs in XP10 in the first place. This is VERY rare under normal circumstances.

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i haven't had a single crash, i get around 40fps on the ground in populated airports and 80fps and up once off the ground.the only problem i have is addon planes not being ready for 11

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i haven't had a single crash, i get around 40fps on the ground in populated airports and 80fps and up once off the ground.the only problem i have is addon planes not being ready for 11

Sure, and a lot of other users seem to have a similar experience. But unfortunately your experience does not help me all that much. I have a top line system and still 30fps with a fresh XP11 install. Not unusual - but apart from the framerate issue, the jerkiness is an issue. It did not seem related to fps, but was almost unflyable. I certainly gave up.

You mentioned 30 FPS are normal for you - isn't that decent enough?

 

Maybe you should just relax and not think so much about FPS or CTD risk (esp. since you made the experience that in your hundreds of flight CTD was not common). I stopped monitoring VAS usage in P3D, too (but I don't use a lot of stuff anyway there.)

 

Also, I wonder why you have CTDs in XP10 in the first place. This is VERY rare under normal circumstances.

30fps is ok, but you really need a fair bit more. Won't get into why here. Would be more than happy if it stayed there though, but unfortunately it does not. It varies from 10 -70. Since so much effort is spent getting the average fps to 30, it is hard not to focus on it.

 

CTD in XP10 is very common. I have had probably dozens. There are whole threads in various forums devoted to this issue. It is such a hard thing to track down. I am a programmer myself, and none of my software EVER does this and it puzzles me greatly from a technical perspective. But I program in Delphi so perhaps that language has better error trapping or something.

 

And it is not a numbers thing. Even ONE CTD is enough to shatter you. If you have spent all day flight planning/prepping/flying, then on approach you get a CTD, you are shattered. That is precisely why I gave up FSX years ago - I was doing a flight from Singapore to Sydney, and multi hours into the flight, it crashed. Wiped FSX from my HDD the same day. I still don't do long flights to this day for this very reason.

 

If it is rare in your life, then think yourself lucky.

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It varies from 10-70. Since so much effort is spent getting the average fps to 30, it is hard not to focus on it.

 

 

 

30fps is ok, but you really need a fair bit more. Won't get into why here.

Well, I ask anyway: Why? X-Plane needs 20 FPS to keep up real-time simulation, and 30 FPS are more than your eyes can perceive. Do you do VR stuff?

 

 

CTD in XP10 is very common. I have had probably dozens. There are whole threads in various forums devoted to this issue. It is such a hard thing to track down.

And which reasons were stated at the end of log.txt? Or none at all?

 

 

Well, maybe I'm lucky, but I have rarely problems with my computers anyway. But I also don't "optimize" using obscure software, I keep conservative settings, and I'm happy with 25 FPS under all circumstances. (When you set your rendering settings, do that under the heaviest scenery and weather conditions possible. When you get there your 30 FPS, you should be way above that under lighter conditions.)

 

The only crashes I had in XP10 were on my old PC when I was moving the camera REALLY fast during twilight. Reason was that the old NVidia GT530 simply didn't cut it.

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Man, you XP11 people are really spoiled by thinking 30fps is just "ok".

 

In P3D I'd be in heaven if I get consistent and smooth 30fps! It took me endless tweaks and hours to stick with that magic number with high settings! 

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Well, I ask anyway: Why? X-Plane needs 20 FPS to keep up real-time simulation, and 30 FPS are more than your eyes can perceive. Do you do VR stuff?

Well, I have seen it described better elsewhere, but let me try. You are comparing XP10 (or any game) to a movie framerate of 24fps, I suspect, and thus thinking that anything better than that is acceptable. The problem is the movie system is analog. ie each frame is an incremental change from the one before and your eye tracks and records that. ie you might be filming a person walking - it records every small movement in the whole scene. Digital images on a screen are not like that or so I am led to believe. It is a graphics design/hardware issue. Your eye does not track and record each image in the same way as it does images on a movie screen. So you need a much higher digital framerate than 24 to make the motion blur in the same way.

 

That is the gist of it - do a Google search. There are threads on the ORG that goes into this as well and much better than I can.

Man, you XP11 people are really spoiled by thinking 30fps is just "ok".

 

In P3D I'd be in heaven if I get consistent and smooth 30fps! It took me endless tweaks and hours to stick with that magic number with high settings! 

Trust me, getting 30 fps in XP is a challenge as well. And keeping it there is a constant challenge. I have a $1000 video card and I still strive to get that.

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Sure, and a lot of other users seem to have a similar experience. But unfortunately your experience does not help me all that much. I have a top line system and still 30fps with a fresh XP11 install. Not unusual - but apart from the framerate issue, the jerkiness is an issue. It did not seem related to fps, but was almost unflyable. I certainly gave up.

 

30fps is ok, but you really need a fair bit more. Won't get into why here. Would be more than happy if it stayed there though, but unfortunately it does not. It varies from 10 -70. Since so much effort is spent getting the average fps to 30, it is hard not to focus on it.

 

CTD in XP10 is very common. I have had probably dozens. There are whole threads in various forums devoted to this issue. It is such a hard thing to track down. I am a programmer myself, and none of my software EVER does this and it puzzles me greatly from a technical perspective. But I program in Delphi so perhaps that language has better error trapping or something.

 

And it is not a numbers thing. Even ONE CTD is enough to shatter you. If you have spent all day flight planning/prepping/flying, then on approach you get a CTD, you are shattered. That is precisely why I gave up FSX years ago - I was doing a flight from Singapore to Sydney, and multi hours into the flight, it crashed. Wiped FSX from my HDD the same day. I still don't do long flights to this day for this very reason.

 

If it is rare in your life, then think yourself lucky.

my current t system. Is only a 6600k at 5ghz,have you tried turning the ai traffic off and turning reflections down? In the Nvidia control panel turn off threaded optimization,that should give you a big boost in fps.reflections hammer your cpu.

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my current t system. Is only a 6600k at 5ghz,have you tried turning the ai traffic off and turning reflections down? In the Nvidia control panel turn off threaded optimization,that should give you a big boost in fps.reflections hammer your cpu.

Of course, Have spent years tweaking every single parameter known to man. Never use AI traffic (out of the question).

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I think a lot of people who want 50+ framerates are comparing this simulator to FSX and, by association, P3D.  My computer will fly FSX (yes, I still have it installed) at 80 to 100 FPS.  X-Plane will rarely show those figures, usually getting 35-50 and sometimes down into the lower 20s in heavily populated areas.  If I was not looking at the data display, I would never know it had gotten that low.  Reason - FSX was developed in an era when computers were much less powerful and the highest demands are a piece of cake for newer computers.  X-Plane, with its 64 bit capability and its constant updates to stay on the "bleeding edge" while handling all three operating systems, blows the popular, but obsolete platforms out of the water.

 

John

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Trust me, getting 30 fps in XP is a challenge as well.

 

I just noticed your signature. 5 monitors? Well. That can be hard, I guess. I'm using one 1920x1080 screen, everything fine with that.

 

 

 


ie you might be filming a person walking - it records every small movement in the whole scene.

 

As far as I know, a "classic" movie camera takes 24 "photos" per second, and everything between two of these photos (frames) is lost. It is your brain that fills the gaps, be it a movie or be it a video game.

 

I guess the problem with games is that the FPS is not constant, but always changing (hard to avoid that), and that digital displays do not blur movements as CRT displays did.

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Trust me, getting 30 fps in XP is a challenge as well. And keeping it there is a constant challenge. I have a $1000 video card and I still strive to get that.

 

All I can say is that your experience isn't universal. I've been enjoying frame rates in XP10 at a minimum of 40fps and it often shoots up to the 80's and 90's over something like a cloud deck. This is with a GTX 970 video card, Windows 10, i7 6700 4.0 GHz, 32 Gig RAM. 

 

Now, that's with careful adjustment of all the various settings. I dial up what's important to me, and dial down the stuff that isn't. I can still run HDR. I'm using SkyMaxx Pro clouds that help a little with frame rate. More importantly I suspect, I'm not going nuts with monitor resolution. My full screen is 1920x1200 and I often fly in a slightly smaller window so I can tab back and forth to Plan-G or just web browse during cruise. I also keep a fairly stripped-down PC, careful with too many background processes running, etc. For me anyway, X-Plane 10 has been perfectly stable delivering 40+ fps. I can't remember the last time I had a CTD. 

 

In the XP11 Beta I'm getting similar 40+ fps  frame rates even with the new eye candy like pbr reflections, which is great. Although it's hard to compare directly, because we only have that stupid quality slider now, where I can't adjust things like number of cars.

 

And guess what... I can crash the beta. All I have to do is choose "Save Default Configuration" on my Thrustmaster Warthog controllers and it will lock up. But hey, it's a Beta and Laminar knows about this multiple USB controller issue. 

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These were the first three of Ben's known bugs:

 

Known Bugs 

  • Low frame rate – we are still optimizing rendering; please do not report low framerate unless you see < 5 fps on low settings.
  • If the visibility seems too low, set the visibility higher in Weather Customize screen.
  • Setting up networking configurations may crash the sim. (XPD-6857, 6864)
  •  
  • They seem to constitute 80% of the complaints I am seeing on these boards and are being addressed by the devs.
  •  
  • John
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I just noticed your signature. 5 monitors? Well. That can be hard, I guess. I'm using one 1920x1080 screen, everything fine with that.

 

Not just five monitors, his sig lists the main monitor as 4k. 

 

I can understand why people want to do this. On the other hand, complaining about not getting high enough frame rates running a rig like that, isn't going to draw much sympathy about achievable frame rates.

 

Personally I think 4k monitors are nuts right now, considering what's needed in flight sims and games to push those pixels. But that doesn't stop the monitor companies from pushing them, or the enthusiasts from buying them. It's not just flight sims. The game boards are filled with people complaining that they can't get 60fps with the latest AAA PC game on their 4k monitors.

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These were the first three of Ben's known bugs:

 

Known Bugs 

  • Low frame rate – we are still optimizing rendering; please do not report low framerate unless you see < 5 fps on low settings.
  • If the visibility seems too low, set the visibility higher in Weather Customize screen.
  • Setting up networking configurations may crash the sim. (XPD-6857, 6864)
  •  
  • They seem to constitute 80% of the complaints I am seeing on these boards and are being addressed by the devs.
  •  
  • John

 

Sure. My post was more along the lines of - if you are on the fence, wait a bit longer. Some of the bugs seem to be fairly serious (ie my hardware setup issues). Frankly, I don't think it should be released even as a beta as I found bugs within minutes of loading the program. As a developer myself that would have been my option - a beta is meant to iron out the last minute or hard to find bugs. It should be a field test more than anything. But like so much in X-Plane (and I guess other platforms), there is little time for proper testing anymore. Not that I am complaining - not much point in doing that. I am sure they will get there.

Not just five monitors, his sig lists the main monitor as 4k. 

 

I can understand why people want to do this. On the other hand, complaining about not getting high enough frame rates running a rig like that, isn't going to draw much sympathy about achievable frame rates.

 

Personally I think 4k monitors are nuts right now, considering what's needed in flight sims and games to push those pixels. But that doesn't stop the monitor companies from pushing them, or the enthusiasts from buying them. It's not just flight sims. The game boards are filled with people complaining that they can't get 60fps with the latest AAA PC game on their 4k monitors.

Well, you might understand a bit more if you knew my system is my work machine. I use it for developing software, and in THAT situation a 4K monitor makes total sense. As do the 5 (and sometimes 6) monitors. And I would have more if my desk could fit them.

 

I only use one monitor (with XP10, hopefully more with XP11) with XP, and that not at full 4K. Usually only 2560  x whatever. But you might be interested to know that at full 4K, the framerates are only slightly lower than at 1920. Barely 5fps. I was surprised myself. But I still don't use 4K as I don't like switching between normal work resolution and one specific for XP. The extra monitors (when in XP) are to hold the flight planner, approach plates, etc. No big deal - I have multiple video cards so very little extra processing needed.

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i notice you have 2 graphic card installed. just to test some stuff out have you considered unplugging the 460 just to see how xplane runs?

 

second question is what add ons do you have installed on xplane 10

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i notice you have 2 graphic card installed. just to test some stuff out have you considered unplugging the 460 just to see how xplane runs?

 

second question is what add ons do you have installed on xplane 10

yes, have performed probably every single combination/variation known to man. Multiple computers, totally different hardware. About the only constant is Windows 7.

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I have been an X-Plane user for years and fully expect to upgrade to XP 11, so I recently bought the full XP11 version. I know it is a beta, but it has so many obvious bugs I really wish I had waited a bit longer.

 

I have a CH Yoke and rudder pedals and an X-55 throttle. All very standard and known to XP11. It took me AGES to calibrate them. The system crashed 99% of the time after I calibrated an axis. Multiple reboots of XP allowed me to at last calibrate the hardware (I think, I am too wary to go back into those screens).

 

After a few hours spent getting it to load and with a few basic commands in the system, I flew the default Cessna around my home scenery. Pretty awful. While the framerates were about normal (30 or so), the screen was jerky and looked little different to XP10. By this time I was sick and tired of all the crashes, so perhaps I was just worn out. But was not impressed. Also had HUGE weather vaning effects - practically could not take off. Actually took off over the grass as could not keep the plane lined up. XP10 had the same problem quite often. Totally unrealistic and I had hoped that they had fixed this.

 

Anyway - I have just seen so many glowing reports of XP11 I thought I would throw in a contrary viewpoint. If you are on the fence, I would wait a bit longer. One thing I did like - you can simply drag a lot of stuff from XP10 across and it will work. All the scenery seems to work just fine. I understand the aircraft do not. The GUI interface is nice (in some ways), but frankly I don't really care. The old menu system worked just fine and the new one is only incrementally better. No big deal. What I would have loved to see is a good fault trapping system (ie no more CTD) or weird fatal errors. That and the framerates issues are really the only 2 things I care about.

 

It is so hard to get a decent experience in XP10 (and now XP11, I guess) that fully most of my flight sessions is spent tweaking and monitoring the framerate. The rest of the time I am just on the edge of my seat waiting for an error to happen. In hindsight, and having done hundreds (if not thousands) of flights, a CTD is not that common at all. But it is always there in the back of your mind. But the framerate issue is there 100% of the time, every flight.

 

Ok, rant over. I know it is a beta and am going to wait for the full release before I try anything again. I am pretty confident that things will settle down, so take my comments in the spirit they were meant.

BETA, BETA, BETA, BETA, BETA, BETA ! Do you know what a beta is ?

 

Maybe you need to buy new rudder pedals ! I've never had a problem with weather vaning unless there is a 20+ cross wind.

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BETA, BETA, BETA, BETA, BETA, BETA ! Do you know what a beta is ?

 

Maybe you need to buy new rudder pedals ! I've never had a problem with weather vaning unless there is a 20+ cross wind.

Well, my first thought was that you have failed to read my posts. But then, we are all busy people, so let me repeat myself by saying that I am a software developer and have been for many decades. I know what a beta is better than most, I dare say.

 

Your comment about my rudder pedals is puzzling. Not sure what your experience with weather-vaning has to do with it at all. Also not sure what rudder pedals has to do with it either. It has been a well known problem in XP 10 for ages. In fact I seem to recall seeing a post on one of the forums this very day on the subject. In his case a recalibration of the rudder hardware in-flight fixed his problem.

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JFWIW XP11 runs smoother than XP10 given the higher default settings that are somehow "forced".

 

I used to tune down or totally clear cars on roads, and the cloud density was set to never more than 20%. In XP11 I get very acceptable performance even with the default settings for these items, defined by the complexity slider, and at higher graphics settins ( HDR + ).

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I cant believe we are comparing a loaded FSX/P3D to Default X-Plane. Sorry to say, but a loaded P3D demolishes X-Plane visually but gets you the same performance. Dont you guys see a problem with that? I mean yeah, default P3D doesnt look as nice, but it runs at over 80 FPS. I dont see a 50 FPS drop worth of visual gain in XP11 to warrant such poor performance. 

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This is a somewhat misleading title and seems to stem from a misunderstanding of how LR generally work.

 

This is not meant for the OP, but remember, it is a beta, and a very early one at that. Users should expect lots of problems and the idea is that users report their issues to LR so they get fixed (Posting for solutions here isn't going to help LR find the problem). If you're not willing to to do this or are looking for a stable simulator then stick to XP10 until 11 matures :-)

 

Trying to use this as your main sim is asking for trouble, it took XP10 some time even after v10.0 to become good enough, and this is no different than XP11. If you are sensitive to bugs and don't want to offer feedback and bug reports then simply avoid the beta and wait till it's stable. 


I cant believe we are comparing a loaded FSX/P3D to Default X-Plane. Sorry to say, but a loaded P3D demolishes X-Plane visually but gets you the same performance. 

 

As they say, beauty is the eye of the beholder.

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Sorry to say, but a loaded P3D demolishes X-Plane visually

 

Well...

 

 


As they say, beauty is the eye of the beholder.

 

...indeed it is because as I see it now the graphics of X-Plane beta out of the box, with no addons at all, demolishes P3D, with all possible addons. Not in every aspect, of course (CLOUDS!) but I thoroughly and actually enjoy the X-Plane graphics more than the P3D ones. No comparison.

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Well, my first thought was that you have failed to read my posts. But then, we are all busy people, so let me repeat myself by saying that I am a software developer and have been for many decades. I know what a beta is better than most, I dare say.

 

 

Sure you're an expert, but with a much powerful PC than mine having worse performance must switch on warning. Either you're requesting too much in term of photoreal + w2xp density + SMP extended range for clouds + payware aircraft such as Carenado  + payware scenery like EGLL or there is some problem in your configuration. For example I cannot even imagine to set 8X AA + 16X filter unless I want 10 FPS with default Cesna. 

 

Regarding crashes, I only had some when I mess with lot of plugins (like reloadX + WT + RTH +...) when testing scenery changes but I think this is pretending too much because reloading scenery on the run dozain of times we don't know what effetcts can cause.

 

And well...about the fully loaded PR3D demolishing anything ...the world is fun because of the many point of views.

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