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77west

3-Engine Ferry Flight

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Hi Guys

 

Decided to do a 3-engine ferry flight after reading about them online. With number two failed and shutdown, have to say, she flies beautifully on 3, the only difference is on takeoff I brought 1 and 4 up to TOGA first, and then slowly brought 3 up to TOGA as we passed about 80kt where the rudder could keep us on the centerline. Once airborne, apart from a bit of rudder trim, the handling was just like a normal flight really.

 

Now I could not find any hard numbers or procedure in the FCOM so just did what I had read online. Kudos to Boeing and PMDG for this level of handling and realism respectively.

 

(To those who may say that would not be done in real life, it certainly is. obviously no passengers and reduced weights and so forth, but it is done, including over the pacific!)

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it should be under ferry 3 engines procedures.

 

if not wait few hours and i will found you out something ...

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I will admit I only took a quick look, Adobe reported "no results found" for the word 'ferry'

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Rolls-Royce. I would expect handling to be the same in the other two types.

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i have to dig into AFM for it so there is certainly a slight difference between frames and engines config ...

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(To those who may say that would not be done in real life, it certainly is. obviously no passengers and reduced weights and so forth, but it is done, including over the pacific!)

Wasn't there a BA flight that did this, with passengers? 

Haven't tried this yet but it's definitely one of the different scenarios I'd wanna try out!

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Wasn't there a BA flight that did this, with passengers? 

Haven't tried this yet but it's definitely one of the different scenarios I'd wanna try out!

 

There was, but this was after a normal 4-engine takeoff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_268

 

I pity the captain on that flight; he made a decision based on BA ops and management consultation and then got vilified in the press for having to land for fuel just short of LHR. (Obviously they could not continue in the same aircraft after that)

 

The trijet takeoff is fun, just watch your assym thrust and use the rudder!

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you can  do what you like  in the sim  not  like  your  going  to do any harm, you could  even try taking off  with 2  engines  fully  loaded :wink:

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you can  do what you like  in the sim  not  like  your  going  to do any harm, you could  even try taking off  with 2  engines  fully  loaded :wink:

 

Adding that to my list now lol. I bet it would take off fine, but you will need the runway off the fast and the furious movie.

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Adding that to my list now lol. I bet it would take off fine, but you will need the runway off the fast and the furious movie.

  let us  know  how  you go before  i try it first

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Adding that to my list now lol. I bet it would take off fine, but you will need the runway off the fast and the furious movie.

 

 

lol just tried  it  at kden   full load fuel  and  weight     only  used engines 2 and  3   got  to the  end of  ryw  reached v2  took off  just  but  that was  it,  only  managed  to climb  to about  400 feet  before  it  started  to sink to  the ground,  of course  didnt  have  enough time  to start   1  and  2  :wink: 

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enough time  to start   1  and  2   

So you pranged it already...

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So you pranged it already...

 

Nah  had  crash detection   turned  off,  just bounced  a few  times  before coming  to a stop :smile:

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Nah  had  crash detection   turned  off,  just bounced  a few  times  before coming  to a stop
I bet Boeing wants to learn how you did that lol

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The three-engine ferry procedures are an extra (cost!) addition to the FCOM so it may be that PMDG have not included them.

 

Phillippe may come up with some more stuff but the main points:

 

- Flap 10

- Transponder in TA only

- TO2

- Do not select ENG OUT prompts

- Place the GPWS GEAR OVERRIDE to OVERRIDE

- No autothrottle for takeoff

 

Then pretty much as you did -- set the two symmetrical engines to takeoff thrust and (above 50 kts) slowly increase thrust on the third engine to reach takeoff thrust no earlier than Vmcg. The takeoff run is quite a handful on your own -- my manuals have the FO handling the control column (holding forward/aileron input for crosswind etc) to leave the Captain's hands free to faff with the thrust levers (and keep it straight with the tiller/rudder) before the Captain takes all the controls back once takeoff thrust is set.

 

Once airborne, it's a normal 3-engine climbout. Select CON thrust and packs on (CON AIR) once the flaps are up, arm the autothrottle and select and ENG OUT on the CDU. You can also then put the GPWS Gear override back to normal.

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Then pretty much as you did -- set the two symmetrical engines to takeoff thrust and (above 50 kts) slowly increase thrust on the third engine to reach takeoff thrust no earlier than Vmcg. The takeoff run is quite a handful on your own -- my manuals have the FO handling the control column (holding forward/aileron input for crosswind etc) to leave the Captain's hands free to faff with the thrust levers (and keep it straight with the tiller/rudder) before the Captain takes all the controls back once takeoff thrust is set.
 
Once airborne, it's a normal 3-engine climbout. Select CON thrust and packs on (CON AIR) once the flaps are up, arm the autothrottle and select and ENG OUT on the CDU. You can also then put the GPWS Gear override back to normal.
Thanks simon, thats pretty much what I did, although I did not use derates, or change the GPWS settings. You are right about the takeoff run, I will admit I was all over the runway until the rudder kicked in.

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Simon sums up it very well.

 

here is the technique given in the AFM:

 

T A K E O F F D I S T A N C E

The scheduled one-engine-inoperative ferry takeoff distance is 1.15

times the measured horizontal distance from brake release to the

35-foot height point when the one-engine-inoperative ferry takeoff

procedure given in this section is followed.

T A K E O F F T E C H N I Q U E

NOTE: This technique is suitable for ferry takeoff from wet or dry

runways.

ONE OUTBOARD ENGINE INOPERATIVE

1. Pilot Flying (PF) aligns airplane with runway centerline and

sets brakes.

2. PF sets approximately 1.06 EPR on all operating engines.

3. Pilot Not Flying (PNF) holds the control column forward of

neutral.

4. PF releases brakes and applies takeoff thrust on the inboard

engines.

5. PF steers with tiller and applies full rudder toward the

operating outboard engine.

6. As the airplane accelerates, the PF slowly advances thrust on the

operating outboard engine and maintains directional control using

very small tiller angles. Rudder pedal nosewheel steering is

overridden with the tiller.

7. The PF steadily increases thrust on the operating outboard engine

to maintain directional control with minimum nose wheel scrubbing

and attains full takeoff thrust at a speed near but not below the

one-engine out ground minimum control speed (VMCG). The rudder

should be used to assist directional control and should be near

maximum deflection to get predicted takeoff performance.

8. PNF monitors the thrust application on the operating outboard

engine, calls airspeed in approximately 20-knot increments and

advises the PF when takeoff thrust is being approached, and

maintains wings level with small wheel changes.

9. After the operable outboard engine attains takeoff thrust, the PF

assumes control of the control column and wheel and completes the

takeoff and climbout using normal procedures as described in

Section 4 of the basic Airplane Flight Manual.


SECTION 4.1 – GENERAL (Continued)

T A K E O F F T E C H N I Q U E (Continued)

NOTE: 1. RTO autobrakes are not available when any thrust lever is

not advanced.

2. Do not follow any noise abatement procedure that restricts

airspeed.

3. Retract gear and flaps as soon as feasible.

ONE INBOARD ENGINE INOPERATIVE

Use the same procedure as for takeoff with an outboard engine

inoperative except that takeoff thrust is initially applied on the

outboard engines. Increase thrust on the operating inboard engine

so that takeoff thrust is obtained at 80 to 90 knots.


enjoy.


Phil


and i think that as Simon said it was PF as the captain and PNF the FO. but some operators and regulators may have done it differently.

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