Why is P3D v3 so dark?

[Ray Proudfoot 8,979]

25 minutes ago, Novation said:

 

Alternatively Ray, you could try X-Plane, and then you might find everything looks hazy and washed-out, but certainly not dark

That was very much a joke BTW. I know things between the platforms gets very serious

 

I hope you find the visual balance you're looking for. It absolutely can be done, but it takes a bit of time and fiddling; once you have you'll be as happy as a pig in ****

I've seen X-Plane but remained firmly in the Microsoft / LM camp. Too much invested in software to switch now. The image is getting better but I suspect that unless I buy a HDR capable display I will never see it as well as LM intended.

Might seem like a daft question but if your monitor / TV is not HDR capable is there any benefit to having HDR enabled?

Are we talking 4K monitors and TVs? I don't know of any HDR displays that aren't 4K capable. So for a Full HD display it's effectively a non-starter.

 

[Novation 534]

18 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

if your monitor / TV is not HDR capable is there any benefit to having HDR enabled?

 

Yes!... The in-sim HDR is not the same as screen/panel HDR. Its more a simulation of 'true' HDR that many games have used for years, and long before screens with HDR were available.

So, you don't need an HDR capable display to use P3D's HDR setting; its something totally different, and gives you more control of in-game visual settings.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,979]

14 minutes ago, Novation said:

 

Yes!... The in-sim HDR is not the same as screen/panel HDR. Its more a simulation of 'true' HDR that many games have used for years, and long before screens with HDR were available.

So, you don't need an HDR capable display to use P3D's HDR setting; its something totally different, and gives you more control of in-game visual settings.

Talk about confusing! So it's HDR but not as we recognise it? But a couple of people have asked me if my display is HDR capable suggesting it does make a difference.

I remain confused. So much so I've started a new topic on it.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Might seem like a daft question but if your monitor / TV is not HDR capable is there any benefit to having HDR enabled?

When you mention HDR on monitors, we're really talking about supported bit depth ... you can run HDR on any monitor you like but visual output might vary especially if you have output at "Limited" dynamic range.  RGB 8bit (it's really 24 bits per pixel + 8 bit for alpha channel so effectively 16,777,216).  Most recent TV's are 8bit and high end TV's 10bit.  For HDR to be truely effective one really should have a 10bit display but you'll also need a good GPU that supports 10bit and even 12bit output ... (various nVidia GPUs do support 10bit and 12bit).

However, having said all this, LM's HDR implementation is not "True HDR", it's limited emulated HDR implementation.  HDR has been somewhat of pain for 3rd party content providers as they need to adjust their textures to work correctly with LM's HDR implementation ... textures that aren't adjusted can look ODD in P3D.

Resolution (4K or 1080p) has no bearing on HDR other than 8bit 4K you are communicating with a much more data and for 10bit 4K 60Hz or 12bit 4K 60Hz ... I don't think we currently have consumer grade cable standards that supports that (certainly not HDMI or DisplayPort)??  That's A LOT of data.

You indicated that you didn't see any difference when going from Limited to Full, this suggests your TV/monitor perhaps is the limiting factor as you should have seen a difference (I do on my monitors when I go down from FULL to Limited).  

Turn HDR off if you don't like it and see.  Lots more to P3D now and to come than just HDR.

Cheers, Rob.

[jabloomf1230 2,445]

I'm not going to wade in to the HDR discussion, but "limited" vs. "full" RGB (also referred to as "studio" vs. "computer" RGB) is a holdover from when broadcast television had limited bandwidth. You can read about that here:

http://referencehometheater.com/2014/commentary/rgb-full-vs-limited/

It had to do with 8 bit color being limited to the values 16 to 235 (sRGB) as opposed to the full 0 to 255 (cRGB). This meant that the blackest blacks and the whitest whites were missing from broadcast television. For computer monitors this limitation not needed.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,979]

@Rob Ainscough, thank you for that thorough explanation. So the key requirement is a 10-bit capable display rather than HDR. I recently bought an OLED TV - 4K and it has HDR - proper HDR.

I imagine many high-end monitors will have 10-bit capability. Now I will need to double-check to see if there are any differences when I switch from Limited to Full. If I do then fine, if I don't then I won't lose any sleep over it. I'm sure that with a bit more experience and time I can improve the picture. It is now brighter than earlier this week. I'll also experiment by turning HDR on and off and see the difference.

Regarding suitable HDMI cables they have to be Premium quality to carry a 4K HDR signal so they are certainly available. I have them for my Oppo 203 UHD player.

[Pete Dowson 558]

6 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Regarding suitable HDMI cables they have to be Premium quality to carry a 4K HDR signal

Actually, for normal length cables, that's just a selling non-fact to make you pay more. For longer cables (10m for sure, but best >5m) better quality cables are needed for any resolution. It's to do with signal strength loss not frequency of data transmitted. For the more usual distances the cheapest cables will do fine for any resolution. The shielding is always good enough on them all.

Pete

 

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I imagine many high-end monitors will have 10-bit capability.

Yes, VERY high end as in film/TV production monitors, your typical consumer "high end" TV/Monitor will be 8bit.  Have to be very careful in the specifications as some "consumer" grade monitors/TV  (i.e. some from Asus) claim to "support" 10bit but are actually still 8bit panels and dither ... more a marketing twist on words.

Example: 10bit IPS Monitor only 1920 x 1080

But like I suggested earlier, P3D is not true HDR, just elements of HDR so I wouldn't get too caught up in the 10bit world of monitors.

"Limited" and "Full" it's about how much data is transferred (per Jay's comments).  More data means more color information ... more color information means a better visual image ... but it takes start to finish in the data stream to realize the benefit. A better monitor may help you with visuals, but it may not meet your expectations as far as "darkness" ... really depends on the monitor and how it's adjusted, video card, cable connection, and finally P3D HDR adjustments.  TVs in particular come with a host of adjustments - this are settings from my now "old" Sony XBR 4K TB: Sony XBR 4K settings

Cheers, Rob.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,979]

Rob,

Thanks for the clarification. I just found the use of it in P3D misleading as it's an internally generated image, not true HDR.

Anyway, the penny has dropped regarding HDR. Bit embarrassing really. I was only looking at a VC so toggling it on/off didn't appear to make much difference. But externally there's a huge difference as this image shows.

Now whilst the scenery has taken on a much brighter look with it off my current settings do include some tweaking in PTA. I think I need to restore default shaders and have another think about whether it's better on or off. Huge difference obviously. But why does HDR makes everything look like you have Ray-Bans on?

[Ray Proudfoot 8,979]

24 minutes ago, Pete Dowson said:

Actually, for normal length cables, that's just a selling non-fact to make you pay more. For longer cables (10m for sure, but best >5m) better quality cables are needed for any resolution. It's to do with signal strength loss not frequency of data transmitted. For the more usual distances the cheapest cables will do fine for any resolution. The shielding is always good enough on them all.

Pete

 

 

Oppo did supply their own cable for my UHD player. Others in the AVForums have had problems with pauses and lockups which might be to do with firmware needing updating but also because an HDMI cable for 4K does need to be certified Premium from the experts in that place. I'm not disagreeing with you Pete - just passing on info gleaned. Obviously I don;t know cable length runs and I do agree with you that longer runs need higher quality however much data they're carrying.

I didn't pay any extra for mine. TV people supplied the cabling for all sources and I used the Oppo one for sound only to AVR.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

But why does HDR makes everything look like you have Ray-Bans on?

That's because the sky texture is influencing the rendered image ... changing sky textures and/or time of day will produce very different results ... experiment with sky textures.  One aspect of AS16/ASCA is the full dynamic option ... which will adjust sky textures accordingly.

As far as cable types, HDMI and DisplayPort have fairly short physical limits regardless of cable quality, for HDMI 4K max cable length is 10 meters, for DisplayPort 4K is 3 meters (you can go beyond that but it's technically not "in spec").  If you're needing much longer distances then you'll have to use 3G-SDI, 6G-SDI, 12G-SDI where you can run 25-40 meters before bit error rates become a problem.

Cheers, Rob.

[Penz 45]

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

But why does HDR makes everything look like you have Ray-Bans on?

I'd say it has not only to do with the reason Rob mentions above, but also because of the "dynamic iris" in P3D.

If you look from the cockpit, and part of your view is the sunlit outside, the cockpit will seem much darker than if you look down. It becomes even brighter over a short time, as the P3D "eye" adapts to the changed light conditions.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,979]

10 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

That's because the sky texture is influencing the rendered image ... changing sky textures and/or time of day will produce very different results ... experiment with sky textures.  One aspect of AS16/ASCA is the full dynamic option ... which will adjust sky textures accordingly.

As far as cable types, HDMI and DisplayPort have fairly short physical limits regardless of cable quality, for HDMI 4K max cable length is 10 meters, for DisplayPort 4K is 3 meters (you can go beyond that but it's technically not "in spec").  If you're needing much longer distances then you'll have to use 3G-SDI, 6G-SDI, 12G-SDI where you can run 25-40 meters before bit error rates become a problem.

Cheers, Rob.

Thanks Rob. I do have AS16/ASCA and have opted for full dynamic option but those programs weren't running when I took those screenshots. I will run them and check how they look.

My DVi-HDMI cable is only 1.5 metres so well within the safe limit. Should I ever switch to a 4K display then DisplayPort makes sense.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

My DVi-HDMI cable is only 1.5 metres so well within the safe limit.

I would avoid doing conversions (often confuses GPUs and can cause other issues) ... specs don't apply in such situations ... any reason you can't do straight HDMI out to HDMI in?  Also, if you plan to do 4K, them HDMI 2.0 at both ends is required for 60Hz operation but not for 30Hz operation.

Cheers, Rob.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,979]

9 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

I would avoid doing conversions (often confuses GPUs and can cause other issues) ... specs don't apply in such situations ... any reason you can't do straight HDMI out to HDMI in?  Also, if you plan to do 4K, them HDMI 2.0 at both ends is required for 60Hz operation but not for 30Hz operation.

Cheers, Rob.

No reason why I can't do HDMI-HDMI. I just thought DVI-HDMI would be okay as it's digital. No short / medium plans to go 4K. FS Labs need to convert graphics and there seems little chance of that until 64-bit P3D is with us and their workload has reduced.