Starting engines

[DEHowie 269]

Having seen first hand starting an R-2800 is a black art learnt through many many starts and learning the ways of the big radial.

Did a DC-6 jump ride and was asking plenty of questions and the engineer who does the starts was saying it was more from feel than any set timing etc based on the OAT, the engine temp, the individual engine played a large part.

In short a base procedure that is modified by a list of variables longer than your arm and varied by the crews individual experience.

Just love it...

[Wothan 173]

15 minutes ago, DEHowie said:

Having seen first hand starting an R-2800 is a black art learnt through many many starts and learning the ways of the big radial.

Did a DC-6 jump ride and was asking plenty of questions and the engineer who does the starts was saying it was more from feel than any set timing etc based on the OAT, the engine temp, the individual engine played a large part.

In short a base procedure that is modified by a list of variables longer than your arm and varied by the crews individual experience.

Just love it...

My point is not to make this overly complex, but simply out a bit more realism into the engine starts.

A warm engine or warmer OAT should make the engines start quicker than a cold engine with freezing OAT.

The simplest way could be:

Oil temp x OAT x Constant = Timer delay value

New engine start point = Current PMDG start initiate + Timer value

This would give a more random, but realistic engine start, addkng more immersion.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

25 minutes ago, Wothan said:

A warm engine or warmer OAT should make the engines start quicker than a cold engine with freezing OAT.

And have you tried this, or have you been using the same weather and just assuming we haven't incorporated anything surrounding this?

[Wothan 173]

27 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

And have you tried this, or have you been using the same weather and just assuming we haven't incorporated anything surrounding this?

YES- I have tried starting the engines at ÷15°C and at 30°C ad also with warmed up engines, as well as freezing cold ones and any combination of this.

Start always occur at the "12 Blade" call - never before and never after. Please go try Yourself, I would be happy if You could prove me wrong !

[PMDG777 231]

4 hours ago, Wothan said:

YES- I have tried starting the engines at ÷15°C and at 30°C ad also with warmed up engines, as well as freezing cold ones and any combination of this.

Start always occur at the "12 Blade" call - never before and never after. Please go try Yourself, I would be happy if You could prove me wrong !

Being a PMDG developer, I think he's going to know a bit more about what's simulated and what isn't thank you are.

[Wothan 173]

1 hour ago, PMDG777 said:

Being a PMDG developer, I think he's going to know a bit more about what's simulated and what isn't thank you are.

Then please for one time tell which enviromental and physical parameters are taken into account for the way the engine starts, cause those I have mentioned does not seem to have any kind of impact, where they are known to have in real life !

It should not be that hard for any of You developers or moderators to get that information and then once and for all show us a video that clearly shows that this is simulated the way YOU and Kyle assume !

The DC-6 is one of the highest priced, if not THE highest priced Classic airliners available for FSX and P3D and advertised as being a complex highend product, so as a customer I think it´s fair to request detailed answers on technical questions and honest answrs on stuff that has been left out.

As told before, I´m a former FS developer too with more than 12 addon aircraft addons on my CV, so normally I have quite a good feeling when something issimulated more deeply, or kept simple.

But if You are not able, or do not want to tell , then fine - it´s just not fair for a product at this price tag - better support should be expected.

[PMDG777 231]

1 minute ago, Wothan said:

Then please for one time tell which enviromental and physical parameters are taken into account for the way the engine starts, cause those I have mentioned does not seem to have any kind of impact, where they are known to have in real life !

It should not be that hard for any of You developers or moderators to get that information and then once and for all show us a video that clearly shows that this is simulated the way YOU and Kyle assume !

I'm not a PMDG developer/moderator or any of the likes. Kyle doesn't assume anything, we are the ones assuming, he knows exactly what is and isn't simulated.

1 minute ago, Wothan said:

The DC-6 is one of the highest priced, if not THE highest priced Classic airliners available for FSX and P3D and advertised as being a complex highend product, so as a customer I think it´s fair to request detailed answers on technical questions and honest answrs on stuff that has been left out.

This keeps coming up here, especially recently. Being a customer does not entitle you to anything other than the product which you have purchased.

1 minute ago, Wothan said:

As told before, I´m a former FS developer too with more than 12 addon aircraft addons on my CV, so normally I have quite a good feeling when something issimulated more deeply, or kept simple.

You're still just making educated guesses whether or not something is simulated or not, you can't know for sure and yet you're arguing with somebody who actually developed it?

[Wothan 173]

18 minutes ago, PMDG777 said:

I'm not a PMDG developer/moderator or any of the likes. Kyle doesn't assume anything, we are the ones assuming, he knows exactly what is and isn't simulated.

Then please let Kyle tell us more detailed about whats simulated and whats not - We have asked numerous times now - but still only get vague answers.

This keeps coming up here, especially recently. Being a customer does not entitle you to anything other than the product which you have purchased.

So buying a new Mercedes only entitles me to drive it, but not get back to the car dealer and ask for support ?

You're still just making educated guesses whether or not something is simulated or not, you can't know for sure and yet you're arguing with somebody who actually developed it?

YES - I have made educated guesses, based on all the tests I have done under various conditions, and not seen any of the impacts that these would have had on the engine start. I´m arguing with one that has been involved with the developement of it, but who do not want to tell any details about what is simulaed and what not - thats hardly an argue or debate !

But let´s stop here, I better go increase oil pressure in P3D, than increase my blood pressure in this forum discussing with worshipers  that has a problem taking some fair questions and critisism of a product, that like all other products, cannot be, and isn´t perfect - neither where mine, or others.

[PMDG777 231]

1 minute ago, Wothan said:

Then please let Kyle tell us more detailed about whats simulated and whats not - We have asked numerous times now - but still only get vague answers.

Robert has already done this. See this thread:

 

2 minutes ago, Wothan said:

So buying a new Mercedes only entitles me to drive it, but not get back to the car dealer and ask for support ?

Asking for support is "I have a problem with xyz, can you help?". What you're doing is "Hey Mercedes, you said that my car has XYZ feature but I don't think that it does, but I have no way of proving otherwise, it's just my word against yours. But I have a lot of experience with cars in the past so you must be wrong about that car that you designed and produced". See the difference?

6 minutes ago, Wothan said:

I´m arguing with one that has been involved with the developement of it, but who do not want to tell any details about what is simulaed and what not - thats hardly an argue or debate !

See the above post from Robert. You're telling me that Robert himself knows less about a product that he developed than you do, who is only a customer. 

[Wothan 173]

Sorry - but nothing in Roberts post tells anything about the complexiness of the engine starts, only something after the engines has been started and are warming up,

Fact is that on my system the engines always starts at the exact moment "12 Blades" are called, if all the required switches has been set. There is no need to prime more or less, or the need to clear the spark plugs after running the engine RPM's too low, nor dilute the oil in very cold enviroments etc.

What we discuss here are not other aspects of the engines, cause they seem to be simulated - but rather the realism of the engine starts.

But Ok I promised I would stop this debate and will do so now.

[MatzeH84 81]

13 minutes ago, PMDG777 said:

Robert has already done this. See this thread:

Asking for support is "I have a problem with xyz, can you help?". What you're doing is "Hey Mercedes, you said that my car has XYZ feature but I don't think that it does, but I have no way of proving otherwise, it's just my word against yours. But I have a lot of experience with cars in the past so you must be wrong about that car that you designed and produced". See the difference?

Could you quote the part then where he talks in details about all the factors that influence the starting process? Because I am unable to find it.

A good car dealer would go forward and say: Of course we want to you get the most out of your Mercedes, as you invested a good amount of money and can expect solid engineering solutions. Well, maybe you were doing it wrong- look here, if you do this and that, it will work. Oh, I doesn't? I see, there must be a faulty part in your car, we might have to fix that. Oh, you expect to the headlights to switch on automatically? Well, sorry, this isn't installed in your car, so you can stop trying to activate it.

But in order to know if the starting behaviour indeed is buggy on some systems (thus behaving exactly the same everytime) or if this is just how it has been modelled, one first would have to know what was intended by the developers. After all, the discussion will lead nowhere if no dev can or wants to provide further informations on this.

The main question was, and still is: "The engines are always starting at 12 blades, with the throttles cracked and if fuel pump, mags, boost and primer are on, regardless of atmospheric conditions and engine temperatures. Is this the correct and intended system behaviour?"

This question is still remaining unanswered, and pointing out the overall complexity and quality of the aircraft, which is splendid indeed, will still not answer it.

[PMDG777 231]

4 minutes ago, MatzeH84 said:

Could you quote the part then where he talks in details about all the factors that influence the starting process? Because I am unable to find it.

Edit:

I'm not arguing about this any more. This is between you and the devs. If you want a direct reply, submit a support ticket.

[Wothan 173]

Exactly this - all boiled down to what I also has requested:

The main question was, and still is: "The engines are always starting at 12 blades, with the throttles cracked and if fuel pump, mags, boost and primer are on, regardless of atmospheric conditions and engine temperatures. Is this the correct and intended system behaviour?"

[DEHowie 269]

14 hours ago, PMDG777 said:

Being a PMDG developer, I think he's going to know a bit more about what's simulated and what isn't thank you are.

Please hop off the Pmdg know everything and cant do anything wrong bandwagon it gets a little tiresome to those who do know to hear people continually throwing themselves at the ground in front of them. Particularly when its wrong or not totally accurate.

Pmdg generally do a wonderful job of simulating most things in what is a pretty poor simulator to start with. How they and others have managed to create great representations of incredibly complex machines many have never even seen is outstanding.

The start sequence has already been discussed as being less than perfect over on the other simulator some time ago.

Is the 12 blade count correct for "every star"t..no. Yes it would be nice to have some variablility in the start time as a hot R2800 starts anywhere from 9-20 blades if its not going by 20 it aint starting try again. Cold starts its anyone's guess as it is a truly magical art.

Is the start as accurate as A2A's..no.

Is A2A's perfect...no.

In short there is no way to "accurately" do a start in an aircraft which requires the co-ordination of four people three who are crew members, 12 arms, 8 eyes, four brains to get started by one person in a simulator with a limited field of view.

I dont mind the Pmdg start likewise i dont mind the more difficult but still not totally accurate A2A start.

Everything in a PC simulator is a compromise and the acceptance of that is the road to sim happiness.

 

[DEHowie 269]

A couple of my Iphone Vids of starts of hot engines..

https://photos.smugmug.com/Civil-Aviation-Photography/Heavy-Metal-Classics/i-bkSV3w7/0/543d9395/640/IMG_3699-640.mp4

Continued

https://photos.smugmug.com/Civil-Aviation-Photography/Heavy-Metal-Classics/i-9RTVmJk/0/8c53712c/640/IMG_3700-640.mp4