the sim - game dichotomy

[ca_metal 2,024]

1 hour ago, Slayer said:

I don't fully agree with your statements regarding X-plane

Strangely you left out P3D(EULA arguments aside) and combat sims like DCS, ROF and IL-2

Dovetail is a bit late to the game but they are making progress and IMO it  looks good, but few developers are biting on DFS - which is death in the long term of survival of that product.

The same could be said of DCS but there is no combat sim to match ED's  fidelity , period. 1C gets it and they are always pushing content for their platform.

1C, ED have implemented VR and LM partially on P3D. DFS is very lacking in hardware support, which is a strike against them.

P3D and DFS will always be compared because of their lineage, restrictions aside. LM is winning that battle , regardless of distinctions between game/sim.

About the developers joining the sim, the real test to that will be when the SDK is out this month. For now there's no way to tell the acceptance as the only few developers were selected by Dovetail to help testing and building the SDK.

P3D is winning? In which aspect? If you think P3D has more add-ons and it feels more "complete", I will have to agree with you, but remember it has more than 7 years of development, It woud be impossible to catch up in a year, and as I said above, we will know 3rd parties acceptance after SDK is out. If the big ones join with DTG, FSW will evolve faster. Orbx already stated they are waiting the SDK to start looking to the platform. Let's what others will join.

[jcomm 5,939]

I believe they all have their place in the present flight simulation scene, each for it's good ( or sometimes bad... ) reasons :-)

I have pretty muche moved from "civil" flight simulation games to war flight simulation games, first in 2012 by the hand of DCS World when a friend showed me the detail of implementation of the P51d, and latter, told by that same friend that I should try IL2 Battle of, I did the same...

Sometimes I ask myself why these days I can spend so much time playing either DCS or IL2, and can't practically use X-Plane, Aerowinx PSX, ELITE v9, sometimes a monthly license of P3D, very few times AEFS, and a bit more FSW, but truth is that among all this sims in my complex neural network, which tends to act more in the line of sim catharse ( read uninstall... ) because I can't easily support more than one sim of the same type at the same type in my PC and always try to find "The One", FSW became among the civil flightsims the one I am placing wider expectations on, and actually the one that gave me more joy playing. (*)

Yes it's the same core flight dynamics model that I also have in FSX / P3D, and yes both X-Plane and even Aerofly FS offer some interesting variations ( although in the end, net result, each of them by distinct reasons fail to please me :-/ )....

I ask myself when I watch FSW videos, what really attracts me in that sim, and I believe the answer is rather simple:

.) It's also 64 bit ( this has became the new trend / mandatory requirement !

.) It has great sky graphics, and might get a plausible fully featured weather engine.

.) It is built in turn of the concept of missions! Ah! That's it !!! Those missions remind me a LOT of my good old MS FLIGHT, whose failure represented also the failure of my belief in Flight Simulation in 2011 / 2012...

FSW can offer great default aircraft and even visuals ( scenery and weather ) for an acceptable price, and DTG is adding content to it in the form of nice missions that are interesting to fly, even didactic!  They are also welcoming 3pds, and 3pds ( at least FSLabs which is a known "study sim" dev ) are mentioning starting developing for their platform.

If I was to re-install a civil sim right now (*) it would certainly be FSW, if not for other reason, at least to enjoy the great Alaska Missions Pack I've been watching in the youtubes.

 

(*) 2 sims are sort of canonical for me - ELITE IFR and Condorsoaring, this last one about to get v2 available, maybe before 2017 Christmas !  As a glider pilot IRL, Condor can be very useful when the weather, and the $$$ in my pocket are worst than the METARs / TAFs / NOTAMs....

 

 

 

 

[A32xx 129]

Gentlemen, all the discussion and comparison between FSW and P3D, XP, AEFS and the rest is somewhat futile - in the wider gaming world, PC-based flight sims have had their day and the modern popular flight sims are all Android and iOS based. OK, the PC gaming platform does have a certain retro appeal at the moment, and an elitist appeal due to the hassle and crippling expense of building a PC gaming platform which performs as well as an off-the-shelf PS4 or XBox - but these fads don't usually last.

For a more relevant comparison to a truly modern flight sim, take a look at https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fungames.flightpilot&hl=en_GB

Flight Pilot Simulator 3D is a FREE Android and iOS-based sim which has been downloaded between 10 and 50 million times, with a free-flight mode, DLC and of course all the usual user-created mods and cheats. The graphics are superb, the dynamics are fluid and smooth. It's only one of dozens of flight sim titles for Android and iOS, all with downloads in the millions, which range from arcade-style to sim-style as we know it. Just read up on the features for yourself and then check out the 'Similar' games listed on the right.

The above sim contains most of the basic features of all the other Android & iOS flight sims, and is a good place to start if you're REALLY interested in what it would take to lure modern gamers from their mobiles back to their PC's with a new flight sim. You might even begin to understand why X-Plane doesn't have seasons or ATC, and why Aerofly FS doesn't model the whole world...

[G-RFRY 1,712]

Can I plug my flight controls and pedals into my IPhone ?.

[A32xx 129]

You don't need 'em Ray, that's the point - your iPhone IS your flight yoke so you can play these sims anywhere, anytime - and millions do.

[flyforever 267]

One must not forget hardware. A complete sim, even 64 bit, requires the best of the best of hardware, which until recently barely kept up with the sims' requirements.

I have a pretty powerful pc, but depending on the aircraft or graphic settings, sometimes my fps are in the teens.

And so I am asked to lower the graphic settings. So what good is it for a developer to innovate if the hardware cannot keep up.

[Pastaiolo 1,688]

There are better ones too.

 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fds.infiniteflight&hl=en_GB

[A32xx 129]

 

2 hours ago, flyforever said:

So what good is it for a developer to innovate if the hardware cannot keep up.

A good point and that's exactly what happened to us with FSX back in 2006. Flight sim development for PC's fell by the wayside after that debacle, the mainstream moved elsewhere and onwards. It's one of the reasons why modern 'serious' sims like Infinite Flight (thanks for the link to that, Francesco!) are developed for mobile and sell at a fraction of the cost of a PC-based sim. If like me, you have a Smart TV with Android, you can even download and play these on TV too...

It's just no use anyone trying to compare any current PC flight sim to FSX, because those days and that type of sim are long gone. In FSX, once you've learned how to fly the plane and how to navigate with the various instruments, there's nothing else to do or achieve. By modern standards that's a complete waste of time and money. Any modern sim which only offers a few tutorials is doomed, so everyone here needs to stop comparing FSW to P3D, XP etc., and start looking at the mainstream flight sims. FSW has everything we expect from a flight sim such as seasons, ATC, real weather (soon!), but it also needs everything the mobile simmers expect from a flight sim too.

[FlyBaby 659]

10 hours ago, Slayer said:

I don't fully agree with your statements regarding X-plane

Strangely you left out P3D(EULA arguments aside) and combat sims like DCS, ROF and IL-2

Dovetail is a bit late to the game but they are making progress and IMO it  looks good, but few developers are biting on DFS - which is death in the long term of survival of that product.

The same could be said of DCS but there is no combat sim to match ED's  fidelity , period. 1C gets it and they are always pushing content for their platform.

1C, ED have implemented VR and LM partially on P3D. DFS is very lacking in hardware support, which is a strike against them.

P3D and DFS will always be compared because of their lineage, restrictions aside. LM is winning that battle , regardless of distinctions between game/sim.

We can certainly agree to disagree.

I did not leave out P3D etc. My earlier response (...if you read carefully before posting...) was to @sightseer and, therefore, I specifically addressed the "3" sims that he mentioned in "his" post concerning possible platforms of the "future". And that side argument relating to P3D...has no place in this thread, so why did you even bother to mention it at all...if it is truly an argument that you intended to leave aside?  

P3D, DCS and all of the rest that you mentioned have not made any major advancements in all of their iterations over the past 5 years. DTG isn't late to the game. They simply see an opportunity to offer an experience that none of the above have been able to do thus far. To me, that DTG came along "just in time" to advance a hobby that had no clear direction.

People either 1) see DTGs value and what they have to bring to the table, 2) don't see it, or 3) refuse to see it. Much of the criticism towards DTG seem to stem from those who simply refuse to see it.

 

[FlyBaby 659]

17 minutes ago, A32xx said:

 

A good point and that's exactly what happened to us with FSX back in 2006. Flight sim development for PC's fell by the wayside after that debacle, the mainstream moved elsewhere and onwards. It's one of the reasons why modern 'serious' sims like Infinite Flight (thanks for the link to that, Francesco!) are developed for mobile and sell at a fraction of the cost of a PC-based sim. If like me, you have a Smart TV with Android, you can even download and play these on TV too...

It's just no use anyone trying to compare any current PC flight sim to FSX, because those days and that type of sim are long gone. In FSX, once you've learned how to fly the plane and how to navigate with the various instruments, there's nothing else to do or achieve. By modern standards that's a complete waste of time and money. Any modern sim which only offers a few tutorials is doomed, so everyone here needs to stop comparing FSW to P3D, XP etc., and start looking at the mainstream flight sims. FSW has everything we expect from a flight sim such as seasons, ATC, real weather (soon!), but it also needs everything the mobile simmers expect from a flight sim too.

The mobile genre has its place...lightweight, easily accessible, cheap etc. DEVs can also reach a broader audience and make more $$$ in the mobile market as well.

However, there is an audience that is dedicated to getting as close to "their sense" of the real thing as possible. Those who heavily invest in sim cockpits and hardware won't be totally satisfied with today's mobile solution.

The mobile market has car sims as well, but there will be those who will shell out more $$$ for Assetto Corsa, IRacing etc on the PC platform and the beefy systems to run these sims,

The mobile market has train sims as well, but there will be those who will shell out more $$$ for Train Simulator etc. on the PC platform and the beefy systems to run these sims,

So, the PC sim space is still a viable platform for flight enthusiasts. I for one, would not be satisfied with what mobile has to offer for planes, trains and automobiles.

Just like we have choices of TV dinners, home cook meals, fast food, and gourmet dining, there will be a consumer base to support the PC platform in the future.

 

 

[G-RFRY 1,712]

Bad news for CH Products, Saitek, GoFlight , ECT, PMDG, FS Labs ,JF , Aerosoft , flightbeam , Taxi2gate, ECT, The Clocks ticking you will be out of work in the future.

All we need is a iPhone 8x no high end pc cheap at that. 

[A32xx 129]

22 minutes ago, FlyBaby said:

The mobile market has car sims as well, but there will be those who will shell out more $$$ for Assetto Corsa, IRacing etc on the PC platform and the beefy systems to run these sims,

 

 

I agree entirely, and that's because the PC racing sims have the same features as the mobile games. None of the current PC flight sims have any of the same missions, rewards, level-ups etc. as the mobile flight sims do. To the modern gamer, they are literally Pointless. Where FSW could fill that gap is by offering similar challenges and rewards etc. as a mobile sim but in much greater depth and detail than is possible with the mobile format and interface. Even free flight mode could include selectable missions at the player's discretion.

[G-RFRY 1,712]

The PC sim will be around for sometime to come, I'm not into playing games on my IPhone judging by todays mobile phones you need it plugged into a power socket for gaming.

you will not have to worry about OOMs just out of power as you are on finals.

[A32xx 129]

3 minutes ago, rjfry said:

The PC sim will be around for sometime to come, I'm not into playing games on my IPhone judging by todays mobile phones you need it plugged into a power socket for gaming.

Yep, that's the trouble with iPhones - Android handles battery usage better. I can play FPS 3D Free for over an hour and only use 10% battery life. I'm now on level 3 and own the C172, Aero Commander and a Wilga which I won in a lottery apparently!

[flyforever 267]

As with water and soda, the market is becoming more and more fickle and fragmented. I considered myself a hardcore simmer, but as the cost of a new plane reached $100, I decided to become more selective. I don't object on the price, but now I try to get my money's worth from every aircraft I purchase, ie. the b717 has plenty of complexity for me to learn and enjoy flying for many, many months. Why purchase another complex aircraft?

As to mobile devices, some games or sim lend themselves better to mobile devices. Others,however, like flight sims, need to feel and look more and more like the real thing. I don't know about you, but my eyes can barely read the instruments on a 30" screen.