And if that works for you, that's cool too.You said:"Complex add-ons cost lots of money to develop,"Like Pavlov, that is what we have been trained to believe. has anyone ever disclosed this?

Thanks Michael..... I think ;-)

Definitely the latter. :-)And I haven't had a lot of free time this week to respond since I wrote it.Joe

Hi Larry,Yes I fly, and no we shouldn't bag it all.I am a Fan of certain payware I feel meets my expectations, but there are certain aspects of the genre that I don't like where it is taking us.From the demand of some that we only obtain answers to questions at certain places, to support questions being locked out to prospective purchasers.What I am in support of is a site like Avsim, that freely allows the community to come together.But when I see commercial interests and their minions taking, IMHO, advantage of that community, that is when I speak up.If I observe something I find is not principled and with integrity, I will speak up.If I see hypocrisy, I almost always speak up, and what some of these developers are doing is hypocritical.Support = post hereBut then slam the forums with accolades and screenshots.I just think that is hypocritical.And I am not referring to ALL developers out there. There are quite a few I do respect, and have bought from. I also support their fight against piracy. And if they want to make aliving of it, great for them, but don't do it with hypocrisy, and attempted censorship at a prospective users expense.Joe

Boshar,If you have any evidence to back up what you said, I sure would like to see it. :-)

Hi Tony,I don't have issues with every payware devo.There are some I do support by purchasing from.Glad you liked my chart, only took about a minute or so to do. Maybe I should upload it and sell it for $50.00. :-lol :-lolMy issue with certain companies may be due to their hypocrisy, marketing schemes, support schemes, censorship of opinions schemes, just to name a few.You see, I just cannot support something when I see them not acting in the interest of the customers, even on a level playing field.When I see equality, honesty in marketing, and above all, no false hype in the forums upon release, that is when I respect a company.I don't respond to every release that is out there, but I respond when that little red flag goes off in my head, and then I research a bit and call the entity on their own actions. You see, some of them want it their way, and will respond aggressively to quash any negative opinion or truth that appears.Honestly, how many threads have you seen here, where a user asks a question, and someone answers it by stating go to the dev forum. Then look at the name of the person responding, and I bet more than a few of them know the answer.If the devs want to see censorship of negative opinions which is what I see, then they need to take all the positive posts over there too.What I would rather see is members helping others answer their questions, wherever they are asked.Joe

Joe wrote>I just don't buy it. And until someone proves otherwise, theirs is just conjecture, and I'll keep calling them on it, as every time they whine about costs, I have an equal right to call them on it, IMHO.

>Boshar,>>If you have any evidence to back up what you said, I sure>would like to see it. :-) Joe, at first I thought you might just be referring to the question of your own addon use, and not the followed statements referring to equipment and cost. Then I read this other reply:You said:"Complex add-ons cost lots of money to develop,"Like Pavlov, that is what we have been trained to believe. has anyone ever disclosed this?Well, I do have the evidence, not that I'll be posting it all here, though. I've been involved in beta testing, E-mails, and phone calls with several different third party developers over the last three years.I can tell you right now, that the process is very long, usually a half a year before beta testing begins, for just one airplane. Then it's several months of beta test with near constant daily reprogramming for defects and added features. Besides the beta testers that usually do this for free, there is usually 2 to 5 people involved with the development team, which might even be spread across the world. This is why I don't set any "artificial" limits on the amount I'll spend for an addon. I've seen all the work that goes into producing these products, and know first hand that they're worth the price.Of course, this doesn't apply to all developers. But I have no problem spending $30 & up for some of these quality simulated aircraft.L.Adamson

Hi Ron,I am more than familiar with the Cirrus. I have an acquaintance that owns two of them, been to the cirrus demo at my local airport, been to three Oshkosh Airventures, and have had enough up close time with it to be pretty familiar with each model.I have much familiarity with the SR-20, SR22-G2, and the SR22 GTS.I've also had the PDF's and Manuals for a while too. You see, this is the aircraft I am looking at buying. I used to be a Cardinal Fan, even coming very close to purchasing one in 2002, but I like the CAPS System for where I do my flying which is out west. I also did not name developers specifically because not all developers act in certain hypocritical ways.However, I do disagree with the adage of selling the SR20 and SR22 separately.Will you then do a GTS that is seperate as well? I will most likely recommend that people buy the SR-22 if it meets my expectations, but not the SR20. I just disagree with the marketing scheme, that's all.So let's see what I said exactly so that the context is not misconstrued, shall we?I said:For example, what is the difference between a Cirrus SR20 G2 and a Cirrus SR22 G2. How about a SR22 GTS. Would you be willing to pay 3 Times for somewhat similar Aircraft. Or a 737 800 vs 737NG 6-700. I see this type of marketing as taking advantage of suckers who are willing to buy anything you put in front of them.Note the words Ron, somewhat similar.length SR20 = 26' SR22 26'height SR20 = 8'6" SR22 8'6"Wing area is a bit different, 135 sq. ft vs. 144.9. Is yours modeled for that, bigger wingspan observable for the distinct models?Cabin width, height, length, type of gear, all similar. So the outside model and cabin is very similar.Main difference is Engine performance, 2 vs 3 bladed prop, and choice of Avionics.They both come with EX5000 C MFD, although SR20 users have to buy it as an option.You can as an option get weather, stormscope, skywatch, emax, cmax, and GPW on both the SR20 and SR22.Will you be including similar functionality on your versions, and if so, what features on which version?Will these be released at the same time, or will you be employing a marketing scheme that releases the SR20, and then the SR22, or vice versa?If they are not released at the same time, will there be a discount for owners of the first released aircraft if they buy the second?These are just more trends I see in the genre, that I disagree with.I would very much like to purchase the SR22 if it meets my expectations.But both... I don't think so. I just believe that this release should include both models.And yes, I still think there are some ravaging dogs of commerce in this genre, and their own actions are what make it so IMHO, not anything I say. In closing Ron, I act on what developers actually do, and express my opinion on it.Your advise to take a pass, is IMHO, just a standard line to use on a person to quash different viewpoints, in my opinion. That is a standard line when someone question any strategy.I opined about very similar aircraft, and your answer is simply take a pass.Nah.... I like your other line, and I will add my take to it.At the end of the day you offer addons for sale...it is ENTIRELY MY CHOICE whether I accept such an offer of sale. And it is also my choice if I choose to opine about marketing schemes, features, support, or anything else I feel a prospective user might want to know going into the sale.I am happy that you are answering questions on the Cirrus in the other thread over in the MSFS Forum. Take Care, and hurry up with that thing, will ya. :-)JoePS - You may have missed these lines in my First Post:1) Now there are quite a few (developers)who don't push the line, so to speak and produce quality products at fair prices.2) So in conclusion, if you read all this, there are some excellant developers out there, that charge fairly, don't abuse sim forums, don't abuse users, and basically conduct their business with integrity. Those are the ones I will suport, and I hope they succeed.3) So What will I buy? CH Yokes & Pedals. Aircraft that are affordable, and don't pretend to be the best thing ever on the planet.... (there are quite a few of these, and I own some of them) Business Jets, small, and affordable. Not overpriced eye candy.

>>However, I do disagree with the adage of selling the SR20 and>SR22 separately.>>Will you then do a GTS that is seperate as well? >>I will most likely recommend that people buy the SR-22 if it>meets my expectations, but not the SR20. I just disagree with>the marketing scheme, that's all.>Joe,Please read my reply from a few minutes ago. You seem to be not aware, of what's involved with just "one" model. The just finished Dreamfleet A36, seemed to go on "forever" just to research, photograph,design, program, test, re-program, re-test, and then market. I was a beta-tester for that one. The whole operation of Dreamfleet is very thought out, well organized, and sometimes demanding. This is no longer an over-night proposition to pop out some additional planes for a "two for one" sale!L.Adamsonedit --- to make it sound more pleasant... :)

Ron, You can wonder all you like, and I can advise others on purchasing decisions and MY OPINIONS whenever I like, as long as what I am stating is true, or is my opinion.You don't have to like it, but you do have to accept it, or you can simply not read it, your choice Ron. :-) As for you using the word, "WE", do you speak for others? If so, please list who you are speaking for please, so I will know.I don't pretend to ever speak for the community, nor should anyone.I do however, express my opinions when I feel like it, and don't worry about what others say when they choose to attack me instead of the concepts at hand.This occurs when there is little defense that they can come up with, IMHO, which I find very humerous. :-lol :-lolAnd to the dinner analogy, just because you list that opinion, or others subscribe to it, doesn't mean all or even a majority agree with it. I see it as simply a tactic to quash opinions whnever overpriced add-ons come up.Joe

>As for you using the word, "WE", do you speak for others? If>so, please list who you are speaking for please, so I will>know.>I'll be a part of the "WE".L.Adamson

Joe, I'll try to be both clear and concise.1. Our advice to "take a pass", while directed to you personally, is indeed a standard answer to anyone who does not see VALUE in what we produce.2. Glad to see that you've done some homework on the differences in the various Cirrus aircraft and the Avidyne systems.3. We did not invite you to the "meetings" where decisions were made regarding development and marketing of the Cirrus aircraft simply because you are not a part of Eaglesoft Development Group. That should clarify for you why your "opinion" carries no weight in our decison making process. Should we ever decide to include you as a "consultant" we'll give you a call:-)4. A list of functionality will be released at the appropriate time.5. The SR20 G2 will be released first, followed by the SR22 G2 whenever our schedules allow us to complete it's development.6. No "buy one discount the other" marketing is anticipated at this time though we do reserve the right to do so if we wish.:-)6. It should be clear to you by now that we do not seek your opinion, endorsement, recommendation, expectations, or any other criteria you may expound upon.7. If we may be very frank here, we who DO the actual development work here make the marketing decisions. They are based on very sound business practices and your opinions are not included in our decision making process.8. However difficult it may be for you Joe...please accept the simple fact that our world, and that of flightsimmers everywhere does not revolve around YOUR opinions:-)Like my old pappy used to say..."opinions are like belly buttons, everybody's got one":-)

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