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LAdamson

How Much will your next Add-On Cost?

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How Much will your next Add-On Cost?In looking at the thread in the other forum asking users how much a future Add-on will cost, It got me thinking.1) The sim comes with a 747.2) There are also Freeware versions available.So how much will the next add-on cost?So, I will guess based upon my exacting research of which I have looked at the stars, cut playing cards, threw my son's lego's in a pile and counted them to arrive at a suggested price which the only ones that know what it will be is the developer. ;-)So here goes.A Pure Guess, and may not be accurate, but provided as an example for where I see the hobby going:$79.95 per version, I counted 17 Different versions here:http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/background.htmlSo Grand Total may be ONLY $1359.15, but if you act now, maybe they will include 1 Livery of your choice for only $10.95 ;-)I have noticed all the prices disproportionately continuing to rise in this sim, to what I perceive as unacceptable levels, IMHO, compared to past versions of the sim.*****************This is how I feel:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/114190.jpgSome here have been around for a long time, and if you take a look at the increases for aircraft, chunks of scenery, individual airports, etc.... It is getting ridiculous, IMHO.Some go around comparing the cost of a dinner with your family to the current popular add-on.... BAD ANALOGY, IMHO, and Laughable. :-lol :-lolFOR PETE'S SAKE, TAKE YOUR FAMILY TO DINNER IF GIVEN THE CHOICE..... And forget the add-on. I know my Family is much more important to me than this hobby.So why have we as users allowed the cost and price structure to get so out of whack when compared to past practices?I don't think we should put up with it any longer.Now there are quite a few who don't push the line, so to speak and produce quality products at fair prices.And then there are those on the x-treme that IMHO, charge way too much for multiple things.For example, what is the difference between a Cirrus SR20 G2 and a Cirrus SR22 G2. How about a SR22 GTS. Would you be willing to pay 3 Times for somewhat similar Aircraft. Or a 737 800 vs 737NG 6-700. I see this type of marketing as taking advantage of suckers who are willing to buy anything you put in front of them.Or Scenery. How many times have we seen scenery being sold a small chunk at a time. Of course the excuse is used that, hey it's a large download, or some other worthless excuse to induce you to buy. Well other software has mods to their games Up to Hundreds of Megabytes, and its FREEWARE. The whole scheme of splitting up a Country or region is nothing more than taking advantage of simmers, IMHO.Airports, mesh, and landclass. Thankfully there is still some Freeware available, but now you can buy 3 airports for 30 Dollars or so... Please.... whoo hoo.... Can't wait for Nebraska. (Most boring state I've ever driven through, IMHO)I hope Microsoft is rewriting a ton of code to make this a new sim to put some of these folks out of business, IMHO.So here is my expectations, I don't care how complex the aircraft allegedly is.Aircraft: $25.00 That is in line with my expectations, and no charge for similar versions. Trycyle, retractable gear, etc...Add-on modules that provide functionality.It is high time MS buys the darn things outright and throw it in to the next version, or create a better one. Too many things require it, and that drives prices up, IMHO.GPS's etc.... Add them in to the aircraft for free, or create new ones that do the same thing, will ya. Sheesh... first you have to buy the aircraft, then you have to buy new avionics.... Very Annoying.... Same with Radar, you got Jeppeson MS. Scenery- Whole Country or Major sized region, $20.00, includes Landclass, Mesh, water, rivers, lakes, railroads, Roads, etc..... But no, it's mostly split up to grab our dollars, at INSANE Prices.Microsoft. - Include the roads, proper rivers, lakes, mesh, landclass, railroads, and make it Photoreal by download sections if you have to. Compress it all down, heck the sellers probably got most of the data for free anyway. Surely Microsoft can afford this.I Paid $46.99 for MSFS2004, on August 8th, 2003. I refuse to EVER pay for an add-on that costs more than the core game, when MS gives the dev's the SDK's for free, and especially when I see other games with mods that are free, in the hundreds of megabytes.My other Hobby is Flying, and I'll go flying over buying any add-on any day of the week.Developers Ego's. A few of them can go fly kites. Guess what, they are not the best thing to roll down the pike in flight simming, they are human, they need to learn to take criticism, they need to accept the truth when someone points something out, they need to not lock out, or worse, attempt to censor prospective purchasers from asking current users what they don't like, or what they see wrong with the add-on. Some are hypocritical for locking out prospective users from their support forums, and a user should feel free to post their support question where they want to, not where you can censor it. For every developer that has seperate support forums, and demand users go there, they should stop being hypocritical and demand also all the screenshots, and buy this add-on posts go to those forums as well, and quit polluting the free ones as part of a schemed marketing plan. They don't deserve to have it both ways, IMHO. And most of all, A Prospective User or Customer can say whatever they like if it is true about the product, or is their opinion, and the dev can dislike it all they want, or get out of the business, IMHO. Another thing I can't stand is developer whining they don't make enough money or no money on their products, to justify a higher price. Yeah Right. I'd like some of them to Prove that. I see more and more censorship attempts around the web in this hobby, and last I checked, quite a few people died around the world so that others can offer opinions. If they sell commercial products the repaints should be hosted on their site, or they should pay to have them hosted at the Freeware sites. Cost of being in business, IMHO. If they Charge obscene prices, the freeware sites should not have to burden themselves with the marketing costs of the developers. A repaint isn't free, IMHO, when you have to buy the plane first.Here is My list of what I won't currently Buy, based upon my principles: No Add-on over $25.00 Period.No MeshNo LandclassNo WaterNo CloudsNo AirportsNo Big Jets, I'm a GA guy (haven't seen an affordable one anyway that I like, yet)No Scenery Add-onsNo RoadsNo RailroadsNo RiversNo LakesNo Specialized corners of the world, the size of a postage stamp filled with objects that eat frame rates.No Aircraft that basically sells multiple versions of the same aircraft as if they are totally different. They are pretty much the same.No Aircraft where the Developer won't let prospective buyers view support forums prior to purchase.No Aircraft where the designers are not disclosedNo Environment or Terrain enhancements that will allegedly change my life.No IFR Plates, Charts, Sectionals, etc... They're mostly FREE Folks...No ATC simulator stuff, use Vatsim, they're real people...No Weather Add-onsNo Traffic add-ons. If I want Traffic, I'll crank it up.No Voice Recognition Software when Freeware versions work just fine.No Video Creation software, MS should allow this for next version.No Helicopters, thankfully this part of genre has not been abused yet.No Funny looking 3d stuffNo Force Feedback yokes, joysticks, headphones, etc...No Motion sensing head move stuff, since there are a few developing freeware versions. I may also donate to certain causes that support our hobby. These can be freeware developers, special causes, bandwidth where I hang out.So What will I buy?CH Yokes & Pedals.Aircraft that are affordable, and don't pretend to be the best thing ever on the planet.... (there are quite a few of these, and I own some of them)Business Jets, small, and affordable. Not overpriced eye candy.What have I been flying lately. Helicopters, actually. That section of this hobby has not been attacked by the ravaging dogs of commerce like the aircraft side has. (although an occasional attempt pops up now and then) Bush Flying, tons of immersion, free scenery by many authors, Multiplayer, missions, comeradarie, and lots of folks who develop for the love of it, not for the money. So what should developers do. Well, they can continue on their current tact, and see more and more users avoid the ones with questionable tactics or overpriced add-ons, IMHO, up to each individual user)...Or they can seek to integrate themselves with the community again by adhering to acceptable standards where they don't leach marketing plans by seeding forums and then attempting to censor users. So in conclusion, if you read all this, there are some excellant developers out there, that charge fairly, don't abuse sim forums, don't abuse users, and basically conduct their business with integrity. Those are the ones I will suport, and I hope they succeed. To the others. Charge what you want, do what you want, but know that people have a right to express their opinions and offer freeware alternatives to your products, and then the buyer is informed, and can make their own decision. NOTE: These are my expressed opinions, some based upon fact, some based upon sarcasm, and some based on research, and some based to use as a learning experience to guage others feelings about our hobby. It is a compilation of my thoughts that have come together over a period of time, and reflect my observations of certain aspects within this hobby.I have not specifically named any developer in this thread, so let's address these by point and not names if we can. These are trends I have personally observed. My email address is available and I will accept your comments here or by email or Private Message here at Avsim.Regards,Sonar5aopa.gif" border="0" alt="Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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And see there a complete lack of understanding of economics and an attempt to impose a personal opinion as gospel upon the community.I fully expect addons to reach the $50 average mark before the end of next year.This is not based on greed but purely on cost, because at the same time the timeframe for creating that addon will have increased to over a year for a team of 5-10 people.The $15 average you mention for FS2000 was for a low poly aircraft with questionable flight dynamics and a panel using mainly default gauges.Anyone releasing something like that even as freeware today would get flamed so badly he'd quit and never be back.That addon could also be turned out in maybe 2-3 weeks by a single person.Today's $40 addons take a team of 5 4-6 months to create and require extensive research and purchase of real aircraft manuals. It may also require renting or otherwise having access to the real aircraft to make sound recordings, compare flight dynamics, make detailed photos and measurements, etc.As a result the cost of creating an addon has gone up from a few hundred dollars (given that the author may have worked fulltime on it) to tens of thousands if not more.Expect that cost to rise to over $200.000 if the current trend continues, in fact I'd not be surprised if that number has already been reached and crossed in some cases.With the ever increasing complexity comes an ever smaller number of potential buyers, which opens a market segment at the low end for simpler models. This is where companies like Carenado and PF jump in (never mind PFs marketing and support practices, they do a brisk business selling simpler addons to people for whom the highend stuff is too complex).Your statement that all addons except general aviation aircraft aren't needed and should be dropped is pure lunacy. You're trying to impose your own personal preferences on the entire community, something someone at your age and political views should know you shouldn't do.

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Well Sonar5, I found myself, after reading your quite long post, wondering - what do you want from us? Are you looking for confirmation that your opinion is right or was this just an opportunity to voice your opinion - which begs the question (and sincerly with the greatest of respect) - does anyone really care?The reality today is, that cost-plus is long gone and been replaced by "what the market will bear". In the case of add ons that is fortunate otherwise add-ons would cost considerably more than they do now. However I believe that I have received considerable value from the add-ons I have purchased.The bottom line is this. YOU must make the choice of where you spend your discretionary dollar and I must make mine. Your view may be right for you, but completely wrong for me. That is what freedom of choice is all about.

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Indeed.And to me the fact that the core game costs equal or less than the addon proves the sheer value of the FS core itself - we get one heck of a platform to play with. Thank you MS, long may you prosper.re addons it's plainly obvious how much work this evolving sim requires - for me its not a question of value, but whether I can afford a particular addon or not - simple.regards,MarkXPHomeSP2/FS9.1/3.2HT/1GIG/X700pro256

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As the fidelity of certain aircraft products increase, the prospective audience will decrease. At the same time, the cost of development will be higher, to support the higher level of accuracy, functionality, and fidelity. The net result can only be higher cost.Of course the choice remains on the consumer end, so there is really nothing new to say there. If its too expensive, or doesn't suit my needs and/or interest, I won't buy it. I have bought quite a few aircraft over the $30 price point, and I have been happy with each purchase. I'm careful before I buy, and I try not to be first in line for a new product. Especially if it is from a new publisher/developer without a solid reputation behind them yet. I like to research the purchase as much as I can, mull it over, and also like to hear some of the opinions (good and bad) before making the decision. I think a lot of people are this way, and deserve more credit than they often seem to get in these types of posts. I think they are too busy flying their favorite product to be here defending their intelligence.Over the past several years we have seen this budding flight-sim payware industry grow from its infancy. With all that that entails.Jordan Moore

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My family is more important to me than the sim too, but the dinner analogy still stands as perfectly apt whether you like it or not. It's a matter of comparing hours of enjoyment to dollars spent. If it cost me 12 bucks to go see a two hour movie (as another example), or 30 bucks for a great plane that I will get literally hundreds of hours of entertainment out of then I see the plane as a bargain compared to the movie. Simple as that.

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if you go alone maybe(even self needs time out), but the relationship value of special moments spent together with loved ones is immeasurable and can last a lifetime. Talk about value for money.regards,MarkXPHomeSP2/FS9.1/3.2HT/1GIG/X700pro256

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Of course. Nobody is suggesting buying a plane instead of going out with the fam. But even if you compare the prices of flightsim add-ons to other forms of entertainment - Have you bought a hardcover book lately? ####, I spent 10 bucks on a magazine yesterday. A round of golf at the local club? An afternoon of paintball? Life is expensive. I choose on occasion to spend some of my money on a flightsim add-on. I'm a big boy and I can decide how much I'm willing to spend on that. I would suggest that if anyone feels that flightsim add-ons have gotten too costly for them, they should stop buying them. If enough of us make that decision - prices either drop or devs go under. That's how a free market works. It will happen on its own whether threads like this exist or not...

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Greetings guys!Every now and then I pay 50 euros for a session of good and clean fun in the local brothel. More than worth the money, but when it comes to duration, the pleasure I derive from a similarly priced flight sim add-on is so much longer that there really is no comparison. Besides, it's not even necessary to take a bath before and after a flight sim session (grin)!As long as add-on prices stay more or less in line with those in the local cat-house, I consider them extremely cheap and will go on buying those that take my fancy. Every man should have at least two different hobbies (wide and wicked grin)!Seriously guys, you can get a nigh perfect add-on for less than a single poke. And the former lasts a thousand times longer than the latter.Be well!Jaap Verduijn.

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Hi JaapWhat a wonderful comparison. The latter, of course, requires that you interact with another beating heart in real time. Sometimes, that can be more trouble than it is worth. One more good reason for FS. It asks nothing more from you than you do your job well. Ummm, perhaps that also applies to the latter.

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Hey All,>>Seriously guys, you can get a nigh perfect add-on for less>than a single poke. And the former lasts a thousand times>longer than the latter.>LOL!!! What an - uh - interesting parallel!What you say may be true I've no experience base to speak from! :D or maybe :( But I was wondering - from which - uh - vendor do you generally get better service after the sale!?!Take Care! -Ed-PS No offense intended!

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Thanks for sharing your opinion. I feel that buying an add-on, even if it is "expensive", is well worth the cost considering the cost of all other forms of entertainment. Complex add-ons cost lots of money to develop, the more complicated systems people demand, the longer the development cycle. If you don't want to pay a lot of money, don't demand complicated systems. If you are happy paying 25 or less, go enjoy the simple free-ware airplanes with a simple VC and simple systems. I enjoy really pretending to fly, and as a hobby that takes up most of my free time, I don't mind spending 30 bucks a week or so on enjoyment instead of going to bars, buying expensive books or going to movies. Luckily I have a good paying job and no family which puts more cash in my pocket

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If you spend money to get a "poke" as you put it, then you probably have more money than the aversage simmer anyways, as you can afford to throw it away.Either that, or its the only way you can get a "poke". :)I'd personally have to be pretty hard up for a girl, to be doin that.Whatever works for ya!:-beerchug

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Well Joe...you took pains to not name payware developers but the question about the differences between an SR20 G2 and an SR22 G2 would seem to point to us so we'll attempt to answer.Though it may not be the answer you wish to hear we'll do our best.1. The differences between the two aircraft are readily available from the Cirrus Design site and a "google" search will reveal a wealth of information about both aircraft and is available for you to research as well.2. A visit to the Avidyne site will yield a number of PDF files which should clarify a number of differences in the Avidyne gauges for each aircraft.3. From a development point of view, both aircraft require seperate models, textures, airfiles, gauges, etc. All of which stack up to "development time and work" expended by some very skilled individuals who deserve to reap the rewards of their labor.This statement in your post sort of caught my eye for some reason..."That section of this hobby has not been attacked by the ravaging dogs of commerce like the aircraft side has."The statement reveals a bit more about your thought processes than we really want to know...But anyway, back to the Cirrus. We make marketing decisions based on what is good for the individuals who actually do the "blood, sweat, and tears work to create something that has actual value.If YOU see no value in what we produce, we suggest that you "take a pass" on any project we release.At the end of the day we offer addons for sale...it is ENTIRELY YOUR CHOICE whether YOU accept such an offer of sale.If you "take a pass" we will still eat, laugh, and enjoy life, and the sun will still rise in the morning:-)

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>Some go around comparing the cost of a dinner with your family>to the current popular add-on.... BAD ANALOGY, IMHO, and>Laughable. :-lol :-lol>>FOR PETE'S SAKE, TAKE YOUR FAMILY TO DINNER IF GIVEN THE>CHOICE..... And forget the add-on. I know my Family is much>more important to me than this hobby.>As I remember, you flew, or still fly real aircraft.........as I do.Maybe "we" should just bag it all, and I'll take my wife to dinner (only family left at home). It's probably safer too!Since I'm well aware that you've never been a fan of payware, then it's quite easy to see why you promote these ideas.However.................I'm quite a fan of some outstanding payware due to the fact, it makes simulated flight more interesting as well as more realistic. The majority of payware that I use, just has a special edge to it, that is seldom created by freeware designers. The reason is, as follows--------------Designing well done aircraft/scenery these days is extremely time consuming, and usually requires a group of individuals spending hundreds, if not thousands of hours to research, design, program, market, and then provide customer support for these airplanes, scenery, etc. In most cases, the product is divided up to individuals who specialize in certain areas.This is no different than working for Microsoft, the movie industry, or perhaps even aircraft production. It's a time consuming process that can take away from family and other activities. In short, its a job that should provide a paycheck. It's a job like any other job that provides a source for both entertainment and real life practice.But most of all, it's also meaningfull employment for those designers and programmers who always taking this art to a new level. How "you" can complain about that, is beyond me...L.Adamson Proud member of AOPA since(I don't remember)

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Hi guys!I'll try to take care that this thread doesn't move into the "need to be deleted" category, so my reactions will be kind of limited when it comes to details (grin)!I'm not sure whether I am richer than most flightsimmers, at least not richer than those who like me have a job, a mortgage to pay, and two teenage daughters who go through shoes and clothing like crap through a goose! It's probably a matter of where one lives: 50 euros (around 65 US bucks) is a sum that in The Netherlands would by most people like me not be considered to be an unreasonable amount to spend on any hobby once or twice a month. Geez, I spend a weekly sum of about 40 euros on cigars alone! As for being "hard up for a girl"... well... I have a simple philosophy: I don't bed amateurs anymore. In my younger years I've gone through half the female population of Amsterdam, not to mention (mostly American) tourist girls. I lived on an old barge in one of the Amsterdam canals then, and when I was sitting on the deck in the sun almost no attractive tourist girl declined an invitation to "come see what a Dutch barge looks like from the inside". They always left at least an hour later, a satisfied smile on their faces.Although it was great fun, those were the days when I learned to prefer a highly trained professional over the good-willing but clumsy amateur. I won't board an airliner unless the pilot is a well-trained professional, and I won't board a bed unless its occupant is a highly trained professional. I simply don't fly with amateurs, neither on the wings of a 737, nor on the clouds of extasy.Lately, on account of declining health, I don't travel much anymore. But the few times I find myself sitting at a hotel bar next to a gorgeous woman who shows interest in getting to know each other somewhat better, I politely decline the invitation if she turns out to be a guest instead of the inhouse hooker. It simply isn't worth my trouble, I'd rather go to bed alone and watch television or read a book before falling asleep.The great advantage of flightsimming is that you can turn it off after the session and it won't bother you anymore. I like my social interactions being somewhat similar, but I was never much good at telling a nice but very amateurish lady to stop bothering me anymore. Many's the time that I finished up having such a lady in tow for days, spending hundreds of dollars on restaurants, theaters, cinemas, flowers, chocolate, excursions and whatever. No sir, thank you very much: I prefer the straightforward, honest 50 euro poke! And then: back to my little home-made cockpit for a bit of flightsimming!Well now, I hope I wasn't to explicit, it would be a shame for this thread to disappear (wide and wicked grin)!Be well!Jaap Verduijn.

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And look at the price of a hooker these days, although I've heard that there are addon packages that one should ensure a good supply of antibiotics before installing.Art Martin

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Looks as though you never experienced the joy of a good high quality add-on.Making a good high quality add-on. Costs money. It mostly involves getting an appointment to shoot lots and lots of photographs of the real aircraft and its cockpit. Study of all the instruments and hours of designing, programming and testing. The resulting product will be sold to a very small fraction of the market that has bought FS 2004.So it actually makes sense that an add-on costs more than the entire sim. Guess what? Most of the time the guy that makes the add-on earns less than his counterpart on the MS development team. (and our MS guy has the company benefits ensurance and the beter job prospects)Sure some add-ons are ripp offs. But looking at top quality like Misty Fjords, the Flight1 ATR 72, the PMDG 737 and anything from RealAir you can safely say that you're missing out if you havent at last experienced them once. But be warned these add-ons will spoil you for life so you will never be happy with the plain vanilla FS2004.In the end it all depends on how much you value your entertainment.

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>Lately, on account of declining health, I don't travel much>anymore.STD's perhaps? :)All kidding aside, thanks for the laugh, I needed it!See ya!

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Wide grin! No, without one single exception (which was taken care of by a simple shot in the butt) I always came out as healthy as I went in. Jaap.Edited in order to add some detail (grin)!

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Well, I forgot to edit one thing. "Without" should of course be "with"!Jaap.

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Are you for real.......? :(Erm Ok the guys with white coats should be on the way.... ASAPJason

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