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Sky Prince

YSSY-KLAX ILS25 R approach?

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Hello,

Please explain to me why RWY ILS25R is as outlined below:

After SMO it says VECTORS and then a straight line pattern to God who knows where. It does not connect to SHELL.

SADDE BAYST SMO VECTORS SHELL FOGLA RWY25R.

My departure SID was SY1. Expected app STAR is SADDE8 trans ELKEY RWY ILS25R. Vectors CRD01 CRDWF.

I haven't flown in a very long time and just got back into it, so maybe I'm rusty at reading and interpreting these things.

Please enlighten meh. 🙂

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7 minutes ago, Sky Prince said:

After SMO it says VECTORS and then a straight line pattern to God who knows where. It does not connect to SHELL.

Correct. Vectors sections on the LEGS page are a sections where you will get vectors from a controller. You would've seen this if you had taken a moment to pull up the chart for the procedure. So, in order to make sense of it...pull it up...and note the 070 line off of SMO. That means "after SMO, you will fly heading 070 until otherwise directed" (though you will usually get instructions prior to this). STARS like this usually have a second page that writes it all out in text, to make sense of what to do, and when. Note that this second page for the SADDE8 says "[C]ross SMO VOR/DME at or above 7000. Then on heading 070°. Expect RADAR vectors to final approach course." Again, in other words "maintain 070 until otherwise directed." You will not have anything connected there, as the last thing a controller in SoCal TRACON needs is some random pilot plowing across all of the nicely spaced arrivals to the runways because he wanted his magenta line unbroken.

The idea that you magenta line everything from departure to destination needs to go die in a hole (led to by a lovely, perfect, unbroken, magenta line).

[This is not your fault, and I'm not taking a shot at you. It's just all too often looked upon as something "not being right" when in reality, it's exactly as it should be.]

[Yes, Eurosimmers, I know they basically magenta-line everything there and it "just works" ... I know...]

 

 

So...moral of the story:

If you're going to fly a procedure, don't just select it in the FMC. Pull up the chart and take a moment to get an idea what the procedure is asking you to do. They're free here in the States, so there's no real reason not to. Plus, it's part of that whole being a pilot thing.

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It doesn't matter how you just explained it to me. I thank you, anyhow.

I didn't bother looking at any charts (a year and a half ago I use to do this before flying). In fact, right after you explain the above I immediately remembered that, yes, I'll be given instructions until SHELL. I suppose I needed some awakening to this subconscious that would not come forward unless somebody prodded me.

I need to ensure that I do at least 15-20 hours flight per week 😫. I'm amazed at how rusty one can quickly become if they do not fly the PMDG products for quite some time. I've forgotten so much!

By the way, Scandinavian13, your name is still fresh in my 'superhero' book. 😏 Some people you just never forget.

Cheers!

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6 minutes ago, Sky Prince said:

By the way, Scandinavian13, your name is still fresh in my 'superhero' book. 😏 Some people you just never forget.

haha - thanks.

Glad to help, and glad you got my humor!

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3 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

Yes, Eurosimmers, I know they basically magenta-line everything there and it "just works" ... I know...]

While this might be correct in theory, look at EDDM (Munich) ILS08R (for example)... many of the big airports are completely vectored. LOWW (Vienna) has theoretically magenta connected arrivals and approaches but they would never ever fly all those left right left zigzag courses. Don‘t know about Frankfurt but Amsterdam is almost completely vectored. You get cleared for an arrival and expect an approach (I guess for backup?) but most times before reaching the fix you‘re given a heading for spacing. But they also work a LOT with holdings in EHAM.

Edited by Ephedrin

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32 minutes ago, Ephedrin said:

While this might be correct in theory, look at EDDM (Munich) ILS08R (for example)... many of the big airports are completely vectored. LOWW (Vienna) has theoretically magenta connected arrivals and approaches but they would never ever fly all those left right left zigzag courses. Don‘t know about Frankfurt but Amsterdam is almost completely vectored. You get cleared for an arrival and expect an approach (I guess for backup?) but most times before reaching the fix you‘re given a heading for spacing. But they also work a LOT with holdings in EHAM.

Interesting - I used to just say that magenta-lining to destination was rare everywhere, but it was always someone from the Euro-area who would chime in with the typical "well, actually" and an example of an area that magenta lines all the way to the runway. You almost need to set it up with that level of predictability with so many countries owning their own airspace (below 230 or whatever it is) and the density of populous zones in that area, so it would then become theoretically possible as a result, and almost desirable...

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3 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

Interesting - I used to just say that magenta-lining to destination was rare everywhere, but it was always someone from the Euro-area who would chime in with the typical "well, actually" and an example of an area that magenta lines all the way to the runway. You almost need to set it up with that level of predictability with so many countries owning their own airspace (below 230 or whatever it is) and the density of populous zones in that area, so it would then become theoretically possible as a result, and almost desirable...

I'm far from having a big knowledge about IFR procedures in RW aviation, but that's what my cousin (former 737 cpt, now on long haul 777/787) has told me when I wondered about the ILS/LOC 07/25 approaches into EDDS, which is a rather small international airport. 

jYMi8iP.jpg

Imagine you would have to fly this. There are no official vectors in the STAR chart, you'll be led to BADSO. From there you can draw a line and fly it down to the runway... 64NM from BADSO to VATER (FAP)... but why should this be done during normal operations? There is a biker meeting somewhere before DS421 from where I often see the airplanes turning left into a more or less base. So I GUESS that ATC uses these DS points for spacing. Having a magenta line from dep to arr might be possible in europe, but it's a nice-to-have-in-case-you-need-it feature I think, probably if there's an ATC blackout or something. Remember, the EU isn't really flexible if something goes unplanned.

Edited by Ephedrin

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2 hours ago, Ephedrin said:

There is a biker meeting somewhere before DS421 from where I often see the airplanes turning left into a more or less base. So I GUESS that ATC uses these DS points for spacing.

Exactly. As I understand it, these RNAV transitions are essentially Point Merge - the controller simply issues a 'direct to' the centre fix at the appropriate moment to achieve the desired spacing. Most (almost all) of the time the track mileage will be nowhere near the theoretical maximum distance - only as it starts getting busier will aircraft start travelling further 'downwind'. Basically, instead of sticking aircraft in stacks and having them fly in circles, they just fly some extra miles.

Supposedly it is (or has the potential to be) more efficient than radar vectoring and sequencing, which is (as noted) still very much the standard mode of operation at the vast majority of airports. It certainly cuts down the R/T, I suppose, but beyond that I'm darned if I can see how it could manage to pack in more aircraft per hour than the guys and girls on Heathrow Director can, for instance!

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And just to pile on, LAX NEVER lands jets on 25R, alway 25L or 24R. Occasionally the inboards will be used to offload little guys (Think EMB-120) but otherwise belong to the tower for departures only. As far as the vector after SMO, the Final controller will keep you on that heading until you reach the pre determined gap in the final. Also, coming in over SMO you will just about ALWAYS get 24R as they don't like to cross the finals. And no one cares where you park 🙂

Scott

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