vonmar

KSEA ILS 16's Autoland PMDG737

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Flying into KSEA using the ILS 16's I noticed no Autoland using one approach configuration?


If the approach selection is Heading / VOR/LOC / APR I get a normal VOR/LOC G/S Rollout/Flare autoland (screenshot).

If the approach selection is LNAV/APR I get a B/CRS G/P Single CH with no autoland (screenshot).


Note:
KSEA ILS 16L 110.3 I-SNQ
KSEA ILS 34R 110.3 I-SEA


I use Orbx Global , Orbx Northern California, Orbx Pacific Northwest


pmdg737-ksea-16L-vorloc-APR-autoland-OK_

 

pmdg737-ksea-16L-LNAV-APR-bkcrs-no-autol

 

 

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3 minutes ago, vonmar said:

If the approach selection is LNAV/APR I get a B/CRS G/P Single CH with no autoland

Hi Vaughan:  I assume you are aware that you only get AUTOLAND if a number of conditions are present so I will assume your question is regarding the FMA status and why don't you get ILS16L.  Having the same localizer frequency on opposing approaches is not unusual and the way the simulator platform elects which of the two possible ILS systems to use depends on aircraft position with reference to runway center point.... so logically the only way that you should be receiving the ILSBC 34R when on short final to 16L is if the 16L system is missing.  Open the P3D map and select the airport and drill down to the window that shows frequencies and verify your scenery has ILS 16L.  The Orbx PNW scenery includes a KSEA but I've turned mine off because I am using the one from Taxi2Gate.

I notice your MCP CRS is set to 343 in the 16L approach picture... didn't know that this could cause the aircraft to switch systems but try the ILS 16L with the correct course setting.  That would be an ah ha moment if that is the problem.

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Hi Dan,

 

" notice your MCP CRS is set to 343 "

That was automatically set.

Edited by vonmar

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KSEA MAP info looks good (screenshots).

KSEA-info-1_zpsnqww9igj.jpg


KSEA-info-2_zps9olbcdpq.jpg

 

 

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Any chance you are arming approach before the simulator has selected the 16L ILS?  For example, are you arriving on a downwind and the aircraft is in a position where the simulator (it's the simulator, PMDG doesn't do this because it merely uses the ILS signal that the simulator gives it) has selected the 34R system?

Describe the approach.  Which arrival or direction are you arriving from? Are you waiting for live LOC/GS indications before arming APP?

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I armed the approach prior to LOC near Paine (screenshot).

Armed%20befor%20LOC%20at%20Paine_zpshgwr

 

 

 

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That is probably the issue then.. you are arming approach when you are North of the field for a 16L approach.  The simulator is selecting ILS 34R.

Don't arm the approach mode until you are receiving the ILS 16L LOC and GS signals... you can tell you are receiving those signals because the deviation indicators on the PFD for the LOC and GS will appear.  The LOC normally appears first but you have to wait for the GS to appear otherwise your FMA will indicate G/P instead of GS.

Hope this makes sense.

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I did approaches to all the 16's and got the same issue.

 

I did approaches to the 34's ... mirror image if the approaches to the 16's and all ok.

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2 hours ago, downscc said:

That is probably the issue then.. you are arming approach when you are North of the field for a 16L approach.  The simulator is selecting ILS 34R.

Don't arm the approach mode until you are receiving the ILS 16L LOC and GS signals... you can tell you are receiving those signals because the deviation indicators on the PFD for the LOC and GS will appear.  The LOC normally appears first but you have to wait for the GS to appear otherwise your FMA will indicate G/P instead of GS.

Hope this makes sense.

Dan,

You were correct.

I waited to ARM and all ok.

Thanks.

 

edit:

My previous flight VORLOC captured the LOC ok at the higher altitude and autoland went ok from there.

 

pmdg737-VORLOC%20OK_zpsc0op734w.jpg

 

The KSEA 34's capture LOC higher.

ksea-34R_zpsghxg6s08.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by vonmar

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Don't land on 16L - IT'S CLOSED FOR CONSTRUCTION!

😉

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Arm approach mode only when you‘re on intercept heading <90 degrees. This might not be necessary in the real airplane (I don‘t know) but it keeps you out of most trouble 🙂

Edited by Ephedrin

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9 hours ago, Ephedrin said:

Arm approach mode only when you‘re on intercept heading <90 degrees. This might not be necessary in the real airplane (I don‘t know) but it keeps you out of most trouble 🙂

Have you tried the KSEA ILS 16L (LNAV/VNAV) inbound from the PAE vor at 5000 feet and then selected APP ?

Edited by vonmar

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Vaughan, good point.  You are within one degree of final course on the transition from PAE; however, I think the problem was the simulator world usually fixes the maximum distance of an ILS at 27-30 nm (unrealistic in some cases) and the GS range is less than that.  That's why I suggested you wait for the deviation indicators for both LOC and GS to be visible before arming APP.  I assume they are there by KENMO.

I was puzzled as to why you would get the opposite direction ILS system until just now.  The ILS 34R transmitter is closer to you than the ILS 16L because the localizers are usually at the opposite end of the approach, and the default ILS in the simulators always have backcourse enabled regardless of if they exist real world.  Therefore you were within range of the 34R backcourse before you are in range of the 16L front course.  Another good example of why in the simulation world one has to be observant of when to arm approach.

Edited by downscc

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1 hour ago, vonmar said:

Have you tried the KSEA ILS 16L (LNAV/VNAV) inbound from the PAE vor at 5000 feet and then selected APP ?

many times with the 737 and 777. Never had that issue. But I use the Taxi2Gate scenery too. I've never flown into the default Seattle airport.

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Dan

Dan,

What I noticed is:

From PAE (LNAV/VNAV) selecting VORLOC (in range) all ok (screenshot).
From PAE (LNAV/VNAV) selecting APP = B/CRS.

Do you see the same ?

Note:
In the past I used the ILS 34's and I had not noticed any issue when selecting APP (from LNAV/VNAV).

Do you see the KSEA 34's doing this or having in range issue?

 

PAE-VORLOC-ok_zpslff5gfii.jpg

 

 

 

 

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Vaughan, the resolution does not permit me to read the FMA... I assume the roll mode is VOR/LOC engaged.  B/CRS is only going to appear with IAN option and armed/engaged approach. 

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2 hours ago, Ephedrin said:

many times with the 737 and 777. Never had that issue. But I use the Taxi2Gate scenery too. I've never flown into the default Seattle airport.

Is Taxi2Gate scenery for P3Dv4.3?

Do you have a screenshot of your situation when reaching LNAV/VNAV PAE and then selecting APP mode?

 

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15 minutes ago, downscc said:

Vaughan, the resolution does not permit me to read the FMA... I assume the roll mode is VOR/LOC engaged.  B/CRS is only going to appear with IAN option and armed/engaged approach. 

Who can read the FMA.

Do you see the same when reaching LNAV/VNAV PAE and then selecting APP mode?

How about the ILS 34"s?

 

 

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34 minutes ago, vonmar said:

Who can read the FMA.

Do you see the same when reaching LNAV/VNAV PAE and then selecting APP mode?

How about the ILS 34"s?

 

 

Where are you going with this Vaughan.  I thought you had resolved the issue of why you were getting a backcourse indication on 16L.  Is there a different problem that you are chasing here?

I will not get the same results regarding the backcourse because I have revised the KSEA ILS systems to reflect FAA NASR data; for example, the back course for 16L is not available.  Rarely will you find a pair of ILS systems sharing the same frequency with each one having a usable backcourse.... it doesn't make sense.  A backcourse is something that used to always occur with early systems but modern antenna systems now can nullify the rear lobes of the antenna pattern eliminating backcourses.

Edited by downscc

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28 minutes ago, downscc said:

Where are you going with this Vaughan.  I thought you had resolved the issue of why you were getting a backcourse indication on 16L.  Is there a different problem that you are chasing here?

I will not get the same results regarding the backcourse because I have revised the KSEA ILS systems to reflect FAA NASR data; for example, the back course for 16L is not available.  Rarely will you find a pair of ILS systems sharing the same frequency with each one having a usable backcourse.... it doesn't make sense.  A backcourse is something that used to always occur with early systems but modern antenna systems now can nullify the rear lobes of the antenna pattern eliminating backcourses.

The question was why is PMDG737 going to B/CRS when I press the APP button?

I posted to see if other pilots are seeing the same thing.

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12 minutes ago, vonmar said:

The question was why is PMDG737 going to B/CRS when I press the APP button?

Because you are not within range of the front course yet, but since the 34R backcourse antenna is 2 nm closer to your position you will receive it first.  If you wait until the GS deviation indicator is present for ILS 16L then you guarantee you are receiving the 16L system and the backcourse is ignored.

Edited by downscc

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Dan,

I just now had a look in another aircraft just to see the LOC activate / distance at PAE for ILS16L (screenshots).
LOC 28nm / 5000 feet
G/S at 21 DME
All looks good.


RADuke-KSEA-ILS14L-LOC-28nm_zpsva1ilspt.

 

 

RADuke-KSEA-ILS14L-GS-21nm_zpspethy3cl.j

 

 

 

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Quick KSEA ILS 16L LOC, G/S (front course) test in PMDG777 (screenshots) to see the range with my scenery.

 

777-16L-SEA-LOC-27DME_zps6o3bn0i3.jpg


777-16lSEA-LOC-ARM-23DME_zpsaplxu8kf.jpg


777-16lSEA-LOC-GS-armed-20DME%2047_zpsuy

 

 

 

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The white diamonds on the bottom and right edge of the artificial horizon are you indications in the Boeing that you are receive the LOC and the GS.

In what i presume to be a Beech BE-90, be careful in presuming you are receiving the 16L front course and not the 34R back course which is the exact same frequency.  The only difference between the two from the aircraft perspective at the point shown will be the ID tone.  All instrument students are taught to always verify a localizer by listening to the tone before flying the approach.  Of course one established on course a backcourse has reverse logic from a front course and is flown differently unless the HSI has an reverse sense option.

Edited by downscc

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