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LecLightning56

MCE not recognizing Commands with PMDG 737 NGXu

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First and foremost, I think MCE is a great concept for alleviating the pilot load in a flight simulation environment. I am experiencing some issues with the PMDG 737 NGXu. On the approach, any command to push the APP button and also to disconnect the autopilot do not appear to work. In the former, the copilot responds with the fact that autopilot and flight director should be selected for such a command (APP) to be selected (autopilot and FD are both switched on anyway), and there is no acknowledgement in requesting the disconnection of the autopilot.

Please correct me in my expectations of MCE, but should these functions be enacted by MCE?

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i look forward to MCE's advice on this ..... the functions you ask about / for are not "normally" done by the PNF.

Edited by vadriver

for now, cheers

john martin

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3 hours ago, LecLightning56 said:

First and foremost, I think MCE is a great concept for alleviating the pilot load in a flight simulation environment. I am experiencing some issues with the PMDG 737 NGXu. On the approach, any command to push the APP button and also to disconnect the autopilot do not appear to work. In the former, the copilot responds with the fact that autopilot and flight director should be selected for such a command (APP) to be selected (autopilot and FD are both switched on anyway), and there is no acknowledgement in requesting the disconnection of the autopilot.

Please correct me in my expectations of MCE, but should these functions be enacted by MCE?

Thanks for the accolade.

It's not a PF, PNF issue. MCE is a fully interactive crew simulation, not a scripted adventure where you make assumptions as to who does what.

You can ask Fo to do anything you want, any time you want, and even using your own custom speech if you want.

Maybe voice intonation isn't there as Fo will want confirmation before switching FD or AP off once airborne. The last thing you want is to go for a loo break, only to find aircraft has plunged to the ground because you forgot to switch mike off and room noise caused it, or be on a CAT II, CAT III approach and have him disconnect autopilot on short final 😃.

As for APP mode, Fo will remind you that there is no point setting it before selecting a proper ILS (LOC) frequency, when it's not the case.

 

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12 hours ago, LecLightning56 said:

First and foremost, I think MCE is a great concept for alleviating the pilot load in a flight simulation environment. I am experiencing some issues with the PMDG 737 NGXu. On the approach, any command to push the APP button and also to disconnect the autopilot do not appear to work. In the former, the copilot responds with the fact that autopilot and flight director should be selected for such a command (APP) to be selected (autopilot and FD are both switched on anyway), and there is no acknowledgement in requesting the disconnection of the autopilot.

Please correct me in my expectations of MCE, but should these functions be enacted by MCE?

Hi, can you repeat exactly what the first officer replies when you request "select approach mode" or "approach"? Normally you would have pre selected the ILS runway in the FMC arrival page. So MCE should identify that the ILS frequency is correctly entered. An MCE response of autopilot and/or FD not selected, may infer that MCE isn't detecting that they are in fact selected on, if indeed that was the case. A MCE reply that ILS frequency requires entering, is easily checked. Unless the frequency has changed.

The NGXu should respond as all PMDG Sims. MCE has really fine tuned these aircraft and you can ask MCE to do almost all operations, either PF or PNF operations, usual or unusual! Unless PMDG changed something in the NGXu? Which is possible of course. I don't have the NGXu, so can't attest to that. The NGXu is being prepared for MSFS 2020, so they may have begun to alter things?

Regards

David.


David Herky

You Tube at:-

http://www.youtube.com/user/Herky231

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14 hours ago, FS++ said:

It's not a PF, PNF issue. MCE is a fully interactive crew simulation

gerald

thanks for the note ....... i (PF) have always used MCE in a "scripted way", never asking the PNF to set modes or the like, just do the comms (voxatc), make speed calls & set gear, flaps, do "my" checklists and by voicescripts / voxkey set transponders, lights etc. in my words.

& thus i enjoy the adventure using MCE ..... can't leave the gate without it (&fsuipc).

Edited by vadriver

for now, cheers

john martin

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12 hours ago, charlie130 said:

Hi, can you repeat exactly what the first officer replies when you request "select approach mode" or "approach"? Normally you would have pre selected the ILS runway in the FMC arrival page. So MCE should identify that the ILS frequency is correctly entered. An MCE response of autopilot and/or FD not selected, may infer that MCE isn't detecting that they are in fact selected on, if indeed that was the case. A MCE reply that ILS frequency requires entering, is easily checked. Unless the frequency has changed.

The NGXu should respond as all PMDG Sims. MCE has really fine tuned these aircraft and you can ask MCE to do almost all operations, either PF or PNF operations, usual or unusual! Unless PMDG changed something in the NGXu? Which is possible of course. I don't have the NGXu, so can't attest to that. The NGXu is being prepared for MSFS 2020, so they may have begun to alter things?

Regards

David.

I have done a little experimentation and (in the absence of any strict operational protocols and whether or not a PNF would actually do this in real life) I am finding that, with the Quality Wings 787, MCE handles 'arm approach' and 'autopilot off' commands but with the PMDG 737NGXu, any attempt to arm the approach results in the PNF stating 'you must select either the autopilot or the flight director to select such MCP mode' (both of which are engaged anyway). I shall load the standard PMDG 737NGX and see if this results in a similar result. 

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26 minutes ago, LecLightning56 said:

I have done a little experimentation and (in the absence of any strict operational protocols and whether or not a PNF would actually do this in real life) I am finding that, with the Quality Wings 787, MCE handles 'arm approach' and 'autopilot off' commands but with the PMDG 737NGXu, any attempt to arm the approach results in the PNF stating 'you must select either the autopilot or the flight director to select such MCP mode' (both of which are engaged anyway). I shall load the standard PMDG 737NGX and see if this results in a similar result. 

Interesting! I do not have either NGX or NGXu on my P3d. (Last used the NGX on FSX!) Certainly the 747-400 (latest PMDG upgrade) functions as before, with "approach mode" command working with AP+FD on and ILS runway selected on arrival FMC page. But don't forget that an "AP off" command should always result in FO asking for verification. Then he/she will action it. Because MCE can do almost anything with switches, if you are on a VR setup, there's no worries looking for mouse or keyboard.

Off topic, I just realised that if I'd purchased the NGX + NGXu in P3d, I'd have bought it three times over!🤭 With its release due in MSFS2020, that would have been a fourth time purchase, for ostensibly the same aircraft! That's how ya make millions!😉

Edited by charlie130
Clarity

David Herky

You Tube at:-

http://www.youtube.com/user/Herky231

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32 minutes ago, LecLightning56 said:

I have done a little experimentation and (in the absence of any strict operational protocols and whether or not a PNF would actually do this in real life) I am finding that, with the Quality Wings 787, MCE handles 'arm approach' and 'autopilot off' commands but with the PMDG 737NGXu, any attempt to arm the approach results in the PNF stating 'you must select either the autopilot or the flight director to select such MCP mode' (both of which are engaged anyway). I shall load the standard PMDG 737NGX and see if this results in a similar result. 

I have now tried using the standard PMDG 737NGX and the same problem exists here - the PNF responds with the same statement governing 'you must select either the autopilot or the flight director to select such MCP mode' if 'arm approach' is commanded.

I shall try the PMDG 747 and see if that copes better, but MCE please take note lest there be an issue with the PMDG 737 in all its forms, although I still cannot rule out some oversight on my part.

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23 hours ago, LecLightning56 said:

I have now tried using the standard PMDG 737NGX and the same problem exists here - the PNF responds with the same statement governing 'you must select either the autopilot or the flight director to select such MCP mode' if 'arm approach' is commanded.

I shall try the PMDG 747 and see if that copes better, but MCE please take note lest there be an issue with the PMDG 737 in all its forms, although I still cannot rule out some oversight on my part.

Try your install of the 747. My 747-400 (latest download) is operating ok with the "arm approach". But ensure you have the correct ILS runway selected on the "arrival" page in the FMC and that the ILS frequency is showing on the radio page.

I can't say anything about the NGX's......haven't had one since FSX. I take it that you can select approach by clicking the button on the MCP?

If there is a problem MCE guys will be on it, I am sure!

 

Edit. I'll do a flight in my 747-400 later today and see if I can replicate any issues!

Cheers.

 

Edited by charlie130
Switch press with mouse

David Herky

You Tube at:-

http://www.youtube.com/user/Herky231

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2 hours ago, charlie130 said:

Try your install of the 747. My 747-400 (latest download) is operating ok with the "arm approach". But ensure you have the correct ILS runway selected on the "arrival" page in the FMC and that the ILS frequency is showing on the radio page.

I can't say anything about the NGX's......haven't had one since FSX. I take it that you can select approach by clicking the button on the MCP?

If there is a problem MCE guys will be on it, I am sure!

 

Edit. I'll do a flight in my 747-400 later today and see if I can replicate any issues!

Cheers.

 

Thanks Dave for your advice. In particular if you could check whether or not a command to disengage autopilots works then that would be useful (lazy, I know, when all you need to do is push a button, but MCE should be up to it by way of voice command).

Edit:

Right, I am trying the PMDG 747 QOTS II and am finding it hard work. Further speech training has helped a bit but the PNF does not recognize 'flight level change arm'. The PNF does respond to autopilot engage/disengage and to arm the approach on the MCP. 

Edited by LecLightning56

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6 hours ago, LecLightning56 said:

Thanks Dave for your advice. In particular if you could check whether or not a command to disengage autopilots works then that would be useful (lazy, I know, when all you need to do is push a button, but MCE should be up to it by way of voice command).

Edit:

Right, I am trying the PMDG 747 QOTS II and am finding it hard work. Further speech training has helped a bit but the PNF does not recognize 'flight level change arm'. The PNF does respond to autopilot engage/disengage and to arm the approach on the MCP. 

I just flew EGLL to EHAM 747-400 QotS, latest download with wobbly engine nascells! (Nice effect that one remember it well)

I definitely recommend speech training and a good quality Mike. Sometimes my MCE picks up background noise and interprets it as a command! Either that or my old teeth are rattling...lol!

With reference to the commands, I get them to work. Arm approach, approach mode arm, approach, autopilot off (required verification) autothrottle off etc. Now the level change should be ok with just "level change". Altitude intervene/speed intervene also works well. 

Don't forget with MCE you can change the verbal command to anything you like with Vox script. Just make a new Vox script with whatever verbiage you want and type in the command window the MCE command you want actioned.

Having established the commands work in the 747, try the NGX again. Pound to a penny they will work. Always have the red speech text enabled, top of screen. It will show what MCE is hearing from you.

Cheers.


David Herky

You Tube at:-

http://www.youtube.com/user/Herky231

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On 2/10/2020 at 10:31 AM, LecLightning56 said:

the PNF does not recognize 'flight level change arm'. The PNF does respond to autopilot engage/disengage and to arm the approach on the MCP. 

Definitely not a speech recognition issue. Bear in mind Fo reacts to a set of pre-established commands(speech grammar submitted by MCE to speech engine), rather than analyzing it as dictation.

There are tens of thousands of built-in commands available all the time.

For instance when it comes to setting MCP sped to 250, we could do like the competition and tell you to read the manual and only "ask this way", which is "set speed two five zero".

We don't want robotic speech recognition, therefore recognize users should be able to say any of these. Words in parenthesis are optional

set speed two five zero

set (air) speed (bug) two fifty (knots) (please)

select speed two five zero

select (air) speed (bug) two fifty (knots) (please)

adjust speed two five zero

Make the speed (bug) two fifty (knots) (please)

two fifty knots on the peed bug

etc.. at least 50 other variations just for speed adjustment

Occasionally, you'll come across a speech variation that was overlooked (not in MCE speech grammar)

Whenever you find yourself speaking a command that Fo doesn't seem to be trained to recognize, here is how you can get him to understand its meaning.

In MCE user interface, go to <Command> tab and click <Voxscript>

In "Voxscript overview" panel, click <New> and type the command that Fo fails to recognize. In this case "'flight level change arm".

Your way to ask to arm LVL change will be listed.

For now, MCE will recognize the command but doesn't know what to make of it. Here is how you teach Fo what you meant by that.

Unlike the main purpose of Voxscript which is to build flows to match ANY airline SOP, in this case you'll be using it as a translator.

Select the new custom command you created and click <Edit>

In "script properties" panel, make sure you enable "Verbose" option so you can hear co-pilot reply.

Click "Edit script commands".

In next panel, click <Command> tab and type one of the other variations for requesting level change that Fo is trained to pick up, namely

"select level change", "engage level change" or "level change"

The built in command will be listed. Don't forget to click <Save> at the bottom.

That's it, you just created an aliased command, telling Fo that when you say "flight level change arm" (or whatever other trigger sentence) understand it as if you said "level change", which he's trained to react to.

OK, in this case it would have been easier for us to just add that variation of yours ( "flight level change arm") to the stock speech grammar, but you get the point.

Using this technique, you can get the Fo to understand your natural speech so you don't have to memorize rigid sentences with "the" or "is" in the middle.

It's the closest you can get to "shared cockpit nirvana".

Make the best of it now you know.😀

 

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Thank you very much for your exhaustive advice and instructions. Having tried this out, it does seem to work very well.

I am encountering an annoyance with the PMDG 737NGXu with 'approach hold on'. Even with the benefit of Voxscript, the PNF always responds with ';you must select autopilot or flight director to select such MCP mode' (or words to that effect). setting 'approach hold on' in mCE with e.g. the PMDG 747 QOTS II is not a problem. Although an annoyance, please investigate and see if this is working correctly with the PMDG 737NGXu (it certainly is not at my end).

Thank you again for the benefit of your kind advice and I look forward to your comments about the PMDG 737NGXu in due course.

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3 hours ago, FS++ said:

Definitely not a speech recognition issue. Bear in mind Fo reacts to a set of pre-established commands(speech grammar submitted by MCE to speech engine), rather than analyzing it as dictation.

There are tens of thousands of built-in commands available all the time.

For instance when it comes to setting MCP sped to 250, we could do like the competition and tell you to read the manual and only "ask this way", which is "set speed two five zero".

We don't want robotic speech recognition, therefore recognize users should be able to say any of these. Words in parenthesis are optional

set speed two five zero

set (air) speed (bug) two fifty (knots) (please)

select speed two five zero

select (air) speed (bug) two fifty (knots) (please)

adjust speed two five zero

Make the speed (bug) two fifty (knots) (please)

two fifty knots on the peed bug

etc.. at least 50 other variations just for speed adjustment

Occasionally, you'll come across a speech variation that was overlooked (not in MCE speech grammar)

Whenever you find yourself speaking a command that Fo doesn't seem to be trained to recognize, here is how you can get him to understand its meaning.

In MCE user interface, go to <Command> tab and click <Voxscript>

In "Voxscript overview" panel, click <New> and type the command that Fo fails to recognize. In this case "'flight level change arm".

Your way to ask to arm LVL change will be listed.

For now, MCE will recognize the command but doesn't know what to make of it. Here is how you teach Fo what you meant by that.

Unlike the main purpose of Voxscript which is to build flows to match ANY airline SOP, in this case you'll be using it as a translator.

Select the new custom command you created and click <Edit>

In "script properties" panel, make sure you enable "Verbose" option so you can hear co-pilot reply.

Click "Edit script commands".

In next panel, click <Command> tab and type one of the other variations for requesting level change that Fo is trained to pick up, namely

"select level change", "engage level change" or "level change"

The built in command will be listed. Don't forget to click <Save> at the bottom.

That's it, you just created an aliased command, telling Fo that when you say "flight level change arm" (or whatever other trigger sentence) understand it as if you said "level change", which he's trained to react to.

OK, in this case it would have been easier for us to just add that variation of yours ( "flight level change arm") to the stock speech grammar, but you get the point.

Using this technique, you can get the Fo to understand your natural speech so you don't have to memorize rigid sentences with "the" or "is" in the middle.

It's the closest you can get to "shared cockpit nirvana".

Make the best of it now you know.😀

 

Thank you very much for your exhaustive advice and instructions. Having tried this out, it does seem to work very well.

I am encountering an annoyance with the PMDG 737NGXu with 'approach hold on'. Even with the benefit of Voxscript, the PNF always responds with 'you must select autopilot or flight director to select such MCP mode' (or words to that effect). Setting 'approach hold on' in MCE with e.g. the PMDG 747 QOTS II is not a problem. Although an annoyance, please investigate and see if this is working correctly with the PMDG 737NGXu (it certainly is not at my end).

Thank you again for the benefit of your kind advice and I look forward to your comments about the PMDG 737NGXu in due course.

Edited by LecLightning56

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8 hours ago, LecLightning56 said:

Thank you very much for your exhaustive advice and instructions. Having tried this out, it does seem to work very well.

I am encountering an annoyance with the PMDG 737NGXu with 'approach hold on'. Even with the benefit of Voxscript, the PNF always responds with 'you must select autopilot or flight director to select such MCP mode' (or words to that effect). Setting 'approach hold on' in MCE with e.g. the PMDG 747 QOTS II is not a problem. Although an annoyance, please investigate and see if this is working correctly with the PMDG 737NGXu (it certainly is not at my end).

Thank you again for the benefit of your kind advice and I look forward to your comments about the PMDG 737NGXu in due course.

You're welcome.

Issue will be investigated, as it could be specific to MCE support for NGX. Maybe Fo not reading FD or autopilot status as he should.

 

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