Take a look at those gems - C47 and DC3

[Nobody2020 24]

1 minute ago, JasonPC said:

For now I just went back to version 1.0 as I kept that installer. I can get that one started just fine as long as I do not switch the battery switch to off.

Noted.  I edited my last post to add one point I thought might be useful.  Guess not, now that you've reverted to the older version.

Sim On

[JasonPC 173]

2 minutes ago, Nobody2020 said:

Noted.  I edited my last post to add one point I thought might be useful.  Guess not, now that you've reverted to the older version.

Sim On

Yeah the only thing that gets me sometimes is I may have my throttles cracked but in the sim they default to closed so I have to move them slightly to get them in the cracked position. 

Even in that case what happens is it tries to start (Propellers increase rpm) but then suddenly stops due to the throttle not being cracked. My issue is there is no ignition whatsoever when the magnetos are switched to both no matter what I’ve tried in 1.1.

In P3D v5 I have left 1.1 installed so I may tinker with it there. But in the mean time I am flying just fine in version 1.0 in v4 with some workarounds for most of the glitches that were fixed in 1.1.

[Nobody2020 24]

17 minutes ago, JasonPC said:

Yeah the only thing that gets me sometimes is I may have my throttles cracked but in the sim they default to closed so I have to move them slightly to get them in the cracked position. 

Even in that case what happens is it tries to start (Propellers increase rpm) but then suddenly stops due to the throttle not being cracked. My issue is there is no ignition whatsoever when the magnetos are switched to both no matter what I’ve tried in 1.1.

Yeah, you do need to adjust them manually prior to engine start.  I usually set mine (CH Throttle Quadrant) with the lever moved up about an inch from the bottom.  That seems to satisfy their "starting code". 

It sure did a few minutes ago when I tried starting without setting parking brake.  Engine started, and that "cracked" throttle was enough to get the plane rolling across the airport, dragging the ladder, GPU, and fire extinguishers along with it.  Finally got that bad boy stopped, but what a ride!  😲

On the lack of ignition, you're switching the mag to both BEFORE you switch "energize" and then "mesh", right?  It needs to be on prior to the engine start sequence.  One other thing is that I seem to recall seeing somewhere, can't find it now, that when you click the "mesh" switch, you need to click and hold it till the engine starts.  I can't swear to that, because now I can't find it anywhere, but I'm doing it anyway, and engines are starting.  Clicking/holding mesh also causes the "energize" switch to return to its center position autonomously.  At least, that's what I'm seeing.  YMMV

Good luck.

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Nobody2020

[JasonPC 173]

I’ll try it both ways though I’m not sure that’s the correct procedure. Also their own documentation says to wait 15 blades before switching the magnetos.

One downside to v1.0 is the fuel burn and drag are definitely off. It claims they have been tweaked in 1.1.

I’ve had to tweak my fuel calculations. Most documentation I can find indicate a cruise fuel burn with leaning of approximately 100 gph. My own tests have shown a fuel burn closer to 150 gph. So I’ve been estimating 180 gph climb, 150 gph cruise, and 100 gph descent with similar results every time.

Edited April 26, 2020 by JasonPC

[Nobody2020 24]

1 hour ago, JasonPC said:

I’ll try it both ways though I’m not sure that’s the correct procedure. Also their own documentation says to wait 15 blades before switching the magnetos.

 

The "manual" I'm reading does NOT say that about the mags.  Maybe we're reading from different "manuals".  The version I have says to set the mag for the engine being started to the BOTH position before even switching the energize switch on. 

Be aware that during that "15 blade" time period, the engine's not turning, only the props.  But the mag needs to be on so the engine will fire when the turning prop is "meshed" with the engine coupling mechanism and the enging starts to turn.

Here's a copy/paste of  the start procedure in the C-47 manual I have, with my comments:

Quote:
Fuel tank selector........to choice
Battery Switch............OFF
Battery Cart (GPU)......Attached ON
Fuel Booster Pumps .... ON
Throttle ....... 1” open
Propeller ..........MAX RPM
Master ignition switch...ON
Right Ignition (Magneto) ...BOTH (My note: mag to "Both" HERE, before "energizing" and blades start turning)
Mixture control.....AUTO RICH
Engine primer......ON
Engine Starter (energise) .... ON (My note: THIS is when blades start turning)

As the ENERGISE SWITCH is thrown, the propeller will begin to turn - slowly at first and then gathering speed. You should count “15 blades” at least, before meshing the engine. This is equal to approximately 3 -4 seconds of energising before
meshing.  (My note:  What's happening is that the prop needs to gather some inertia sufficient to crank the engine over when it's "meshed".)

Engine Mesh ...........ON and HOLD (My Note: As I posted earlier, click and hold mesh switch till engine fires)
Once the engine is running, return switches to OFF and disconnect the battery cart. (close crew door Shift/E) (My note: SHFT-E does NOT do anything with the battery cart.  The top panel switch inside does that)
Battery Switch........... ON
Fuel Booster Pumps .... OFF

Whilst starting the engine, watch out for:
1. Engine Fire. See that the fire guard’s extinguishers are placed properly at each side of the aircraft, before starting. (these will toggle with the crew door (Shift/E) and crew ladder.)
2. Do not energise and mesh an engine excessively.  If the engine won’t start on your first or second attempt, leave it and start the other engine.
3. Ensure you have enough (but not too much!) throttle open. (this is required by the special starting code used in this simulation)

End of Quote

Edited April 26, 2020 by Nobody2020

[JasonPC 173]

44 minutes ago, Nobody2020 said:

The "manual" I'm reading does NOT say that about the mags.  Maybe we're reading from different "manuals".  The version I have says to set the mag for the engine being started to the BOTH position before even switching the energize switch on.

Here's a copy/paste of  the start procedure in the C-47 manual I have, with my comments:

Quote:
Fuel tank selector........to choice
Battery Switch............OFF
Battery Cart (GPU)......Attached ON
Fuel Booster Pumps .... ON
Throttle ....... 1” open
Propeller ..........MAX RPM
Master ignition switch...ON
Right Ignition (Magneto) ...BOTH (My note: either mag to "Both" HERE, not after blades start turning)
Mixture control.....AUTO RICH
Engine primer......ON
Engine Starter (energise) .... ON (My note: THIS is when blades start turning)

As the ENERGISE SWITCH is thrown, the propeller
will begin to turn - slowly at first and then
gathering speed. You should count “15 blades” at
least, before meshing the engine. This is equal to
approximately 3 -4 seconds of energising before
meshing.  (My note: This says switch "energize" on, THEN count 15 blades before meshing.  That's the same as my recommendation to wait 10-15 secs before meshing.  Essentially the same end result.  What's happening is that the prop needs to gather some inertia sufficient to crank the engine over when it's "meshed".)

Engine Mesh ...........ON and HOLD (My Note: As I posted earlier, click and hold mesh switch till engine fires)
Once the engine is running, return switches to OFF and disconnect the battery cart. (close crew door Shift/E) (My note: SHFT-E does NOT do anything with the battery cart.  The top panel switch inside does that)
Battery Switch........... ON
Fuel Booster Pumps .... OFF

Whilst starting the engine, watch out for:
1. Engine Fire. See that the fire guard’s extinguishers are placed properly at each side of the aircraft, before starting. (these will toggle with the crew door (Shift/E) and crew ladder.)
2. Do not energise and mesh an engine excessively.  If the engine won’t start on your first or second attempt, leave it and start the other engine.
3. Ensure you have enough (but not too much!) throttle open. (this is required by the special starting code used in this simulation)

End of Quote

Yeah tried all that and something is definitely bugged this doesn't work for me. This is also changed start up procedure from v1.0.

For me engaging the starter does not get the blades turning. Only engaging both starter and mesh actually starts the blades spinning but nothing will get it to actually start.

[Wothan 173]

55 minutes ago, Nobody2020 said:

The "manual" I'm reading does NOT say that about the mags.  Maybe we're reading from different "manuals".  The version I have says to set the mag for the engine being started to the BOTH position before even switching the energize switch on. 

Be aware that during that "15 blade" time period, the engine's not turning, only the props.  But the mag needs to be on so the engine will fire when the turning prop is "meshed" with the engine coupling mechanism and the enging starts to turn.

Here's a copy/paste of  the start procedure in the C-47 manual I have, with my comments:

Quote:
Fuel tank selector........to choice
Battery Switch............OFF
Battery Cart (GPU)......Attached ON
Fuel Booster Pumps .... ON
Throttle ....... 1” open
Propeller ..........MAX RPM
Master ignition switch...ON
Right Ignition (Magneto) ...BOTH (My note: mag to "Both" HERE, before "energizing" and blades start turning)
Mixture control.....AUTO RICH
Engine primer......ON
Engine Starter (energise) .... ON (My note: THIS is when blades start turning)

As the ENERGISE SWITCH is thrown, the propeller will begin to turn - slowly at first and then gathering speed. You should count “15 blades” at least, before meshing the engine. This is equal to approximately 3 -4 seconds of energising before
meshing.  (My note:  What's happening is that the prop needs to gather some inertia sufficient to crank the engine over when it's "meshed".)

Engine Mesh ...........ON and HOLD (My Note: As I posted earlier, click and hold mesh switch till engine fires)
Once the engine is running, return switches to OFF and disconnect the battery cart. (close crew door Shift/E) (My note: SHFT-E does NOT do anything with the battery cart.  The top panel switch inside does that)
Battery Switch........... ON
Fuel Booster Pumps .... OFF

Whilst starting the engine, watch out for:
1. Engine Fire. See that the fire guard’s extinguishers are placed properly at each side of the aircraft, before starting. (these will toggle with the crew door (Shift/E) and crew ladder.)
2. Do not energise and mesh an engine excessively.  If the engine won’t start on your first or second attempt, leave it and start the other engine.
3. Ensure you have enough (but not too much!) throttle open. (this is required by the special starting code used in this simulation)

End of Quote

Thats not how propeller and engine relates.

There is no clutch that detaches the propeller from the engine.

The magnetos are not turned on before You have seen 15 blades passes by, and in the real aicraft the mixture lever should be in cutoff.

The fuel primed by the primer pump should be enough for the engine to catch, and then You will move the mixture from cut off to Full or Auto rich.

But the mixture thing does not work in P3D (A2A aircraft can do that via Accu-sim).

 

The ENERGIZE switch power the starter motor, which has a flywheel.

Normally it should be given 10-15 seconds inorder for it to spin up, since it would draw too much power if it had to spin up itself plus the engine with prop.

Then switch the MESH switch for the starter to engage the Engine (with the attached propeller).

Edited April 26, 2020 by Wothan

[JasonPC 173]

21 minutes ago, Wothan said:

Thats not how propeller and engine relates.

There is no clutch that detaches the propeller from the engine.

The magnetos are not turned on before You have seen 15 blades passes by, and in the real aicraft the mixture lever should be in cutoff.

The fuel primed by the primer pump should be enough for the engine to catch, and then You will move the mixture from cut off to Full or Auto rich.

But the mixture thing does not work in P3D (A2A aircraft can do that via Accu-sim).

 

The ENERGIZE switch power the starter motor, which has a flywheel.

Normally it should be given 10-15 seconds inorder for it to spin up, since it would draw too much power if it had to spin up itself plus the engine with prop.

Then switch the MESH switch for the starter to engage the Engine (with the attached propeller).

Clearly aeroplane hell I mean heaven has gotten this procedure very, very wrong.

Edited April 26, 2020 by JasonPC

[astro_liam 19]

4 hours ago, Nobody2020 said:

Long as the rest of the control settings are right -

• Mixture set to "Auto-rich" (2nd from the richest position)
• Props forward
• Electric power on, either from GPU or battery
• Boost pump on
• Prime pump on
• Mag master on (push-pull button above the mag switches)
• Engine mag to both
• Fuel selector on a tank with fuel in it
• Throttles up about an inch on your controller

If all that's set, activate the engine's "energizer" switch, wait 10-15 secs, then click and hold that engine's "mesh" switch - that engine should start.  I just tried it, and got both started.

One thing I found of interest in the "manual" is the following admonishment:

"Ensure you have enough (but not too much!) throttle open. (this is required by the special starting code used in this simulation)."

So, how much is "enough", but not "too much", is left up to the hapless simmer to discover, but the implication seems to be that the throttle has to be within some unspecified "sweet spot" to satisfy the sim "starting code".  If you're doing everything else right and it still won't start, you might play with throttle settings some.  Just a thought.

 

Also been having trouble starting the engines, some times im able to start them, do a flight shutdown and unable to start them again. But so far your way of doing it seems to be just the ticket! Thank you

[Nobody2020 24]

3 hours ago, Wothan said:

Thats not how propeller and engine relates.

There is no clutch that detaches the propeller from the engine.

The magnetos are not turned on before You have seen 15 blades passes by, and in the real aicraft the mixture lever should be in cutoff.

Yep, I was wrong saying the props start when "ENERGISE" is switched on, but I got that straight from what passes for a "manual" for this thing:

"As the ENERGISE SWITCH is thrown, the propeller will begin to turn - slowly at first and then gathering speed. You should count “15 blades” at least, before meshing the engine." 

That's not what happens - the props start turning when the "Mesh" is switched on.  That's what I get for reading the "manual".

And, OBTW, in your infinite wisdom, if "there's no clutch that detaches the props from the engine", what exactly is being "meshed" by the "Mesh" switches?  Inquiring minds want to know.  Your insights may hold the key to the secrets we're hungry for here.

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Nobody2020

[Nobody2020 24]

2 hours ago, astro_liam said:

Also been having trouble starting the engines, some times im able to start them, do a flight shutdown and unable to start them again. But so far your way of doing it seems to be just the ticket! Thank you

I'm in the same boat you are - that list I posted worked for me before, which is why I posted it.  But now, I can't get the blasted thing started either.  😀

I did admit to one thing I was wrong about - the part where I said the energizer switch gets the props moving - it doesn't, the mesh switch does that.  But I got that right out of what passes for "the manual", which contains so many inaccuracies, we're all pretty much test pilots here with the AH DC3. 

I have to admit that, at this point, the AH DC3 seems not quite finished.  It's a start, though.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Nobody2020

[Wothan 173]

2 hours ago, JasonPC said:

Clearly aeroplane hell I mean heaven has gotten this procedure very, very wrong.

No....

While there seems to be some issues that makes it hard / impossible to start the engines, the way it works in the AH DC3/CH47 isn´t wrong.

Note that hardly one DC3/C47 equels another. There are many variations for panel layoiuts and actual switches. Some had alternators with no cockpit switchs for those, while others had generators with switches and so on.

The only thing that is different between the AH DC3/CH47 and a real DC3 (the version they simulate) is that mixture should be set before cranking the engine and switch the Magnetos on.

[Nobody2020 24]

53 minutes ago, Wothan said:

No....

While there seems to be some issues that makes it hard / impossible to start the engines, the way it works in the AH DC3/CH47 isn´t wrong.

Note that hardly one DC3/C47 equels another. There are many variations for panel layoiuts and actual switches. Some had alternators with no cockpit switchs for those, while others had generators with switches and so on.

The only thing that is different between the AH DC3/CH47 and a real DC3 (the version they simulate) is that mixture should be set before cranking the engine and switch the Magnetos on.

I don't see your point.  DC3 variants in the real world are hardly relevant to these issues - we're dealing only with a one-each simulation.  What's needed is some accurate documentation and procedural information on THIS SIMULATION we can use to get this sim to work, and that's on AH to provide, since obviously, only THEY know what "coding" compromises they wrote into this product. 

The "manual" we have access to now is laughable, and anecdotes about real-world variations are not helpful.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Nobody2020

[JasonPC 173]

37 minutes ago, Wothan said:

No....

While there seems to be some issues that makes it hard / impossible to start the engines, the way it works in the AH DC3/CH47 isn´t wrong.

Note that hardly one DC3/C47 equels another. There are many variations for panel layoiuts and actual switches. Some had alternators with no cockpit switchs for those, while others had generators with switches and so on.

The only thing that is different between the AH DC3/CH47 and a real DC3 (the version they simulate) is that mixture should be set before cranking the engine and switch the Magnetos on.

Well there is something wrong because 

a) the startup procedure in v1.0/their YouTube tutorial video is different from their v1.1 version (which is right?)

b) I can’t get it started in v1.1 regardless of which method I try.

c) the manual looks more like a comic book than a technical document.

Edited April 26, 2020 by JasonPC

[Alan_A 1,650]

Glad I came back to this thread - I've also been struggling to start the DC-3 and in fact just send a support message to Aeroplane Heaven. But the comments here gave me a few things to try.

I'm also wondering if I've wound up with a hybrid of 1.0 and 1.1.  I downloaded and installed 1.1, and I've got the GPU switch on the left eyebrow panel.  But the manual still gives me the original start procedure with mags off until after cranking the engine.

Next chance I get - as soon as my Bombay cat is off the flightsim chair - I'll try the recommended sequence here with mags on before running the starter, and with the mesh switch held down until the engine catches.

I'm no stranger to simulated big radials, thanks to years of A2A, the PMDG DC-6, the Uiver DC-2 and several generations of Manfred's C-47 - but this one has had me stumped.

Other oddities - this whole business of binding the GPU to the crew door.  There's no way you'd ever start an engine on a C-47 or DC-3 with that forward door open and the ladder extended - it's called the "hamburger door" for a reason, and the reason doesn't have to do with people bringing you lunch.  The ladder is about two inches from the propeller arc of the number one engine when it's extended.  So starting engines that way is a bad idea.

On the whole I'm finding it strange and fiddly (all that searching around for clickspots on the cockpit floor, with no way to bind them to your hardware controllers). 

But if I can get it fired up, I might feel better about it.

Will be watching this space.

EDIT: About the manual looking like a comic book - it's actually based on the USAAF manual for the C-47 used during WWII, and uses several full pages from the original.  So it's authentic in that regard (the manual for Manfred's version also draws from the same USAAF manual).  But I agree it's not all that helpful when it comes to understanding the procedures to use in the sim.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Alan_A