3 hours ago, Wobbie said:

You seem to have forgotten that MSFS will be released on Xbox, to the 60M+ gamers out there.

It goes not matter how long they play, it's all about the numbers. That's the actual bigger picture. We, simmers, seem to have an elitist opinion of ourselves!

Numbers don't matter if money isn't rolling in. How many of those 60m are going to buy it? Not many considering it's on Gamepass. How many are going to purchase Gamepass to play MFS? Not many considering it's a niche product. How many of those not many will go on to buy DLC? 

The launch numbers on Xbox might be fantastic. But how many realistically are going to stick around and spend money on the game. 

We've already been told that Gamepass isn't as profitable as they want it to be, though they are saying they are in it for the long run. 

I think people need to take a step back and realise that while people might be interested in the idea, the actual spending money on the game isn’t going to come from casual gamers. At a guess, most casual gamers won't know the difference between an Airbus and Boeing. 

4 minutes ago, shawty1984 said:

At a guess, most casual gamers won't know the difference between an Airbus and Boeing. 

MSFS is how they will learn the difference.

Hook

3 hours ago, LHookins said:

If flight simulators were THAT boring then FSX wouldn't have sold as many as it did. 🙂 

Casual gamers aren't what you think they are.  It is these same casual gamers who will be introduced to flight simming by MSFS and some will decide to pursue their private license and maybe even a career in aviation.  Even FSX had this effect and you know what default FSX was like in the beginning.

Hook

How many copies did FSX sell compared to Fifa or COD, maybe Fornite? Casual gamers or hard-core gamers, flight simulation is a niche market either way. The percentage of people who pursue their PPL because of MFS will be so low, it's not even worth a mention and that makes no money for Microsoft either.

Not to take this the wrong way, but I think a lot of people are living in a bubble in these forums. A game such as MFS is such a niche product. It's not going to entertain average gamers once they have had a quick mess about on it. 

1 hour ago, Krakin said:

The biggest draw for the "gamer" crowd right now is the graphics

Which in my eyes will be the biggest drawback once they have played it (apart from getting bored probably). While we all know the graphics are stunning, it's becoming quite clear from close up that the game isn't as good in towns and cities as what people might think. And isn't that what casual gamers will want? Messing about landing in their town or local pub?

I'm not dismissing this game totally for average or casual gamers, but I really don't see a big or even small market for it outside of the couple of days messing about. 

A lot of this is true, but what is unquantifiable to us at least, probably not to MS in at least some respect, is how much of a straw to a camel's back is an individual game or sim on Gamepass?

We don't know how many people will be teetering on the buy button for a gamepass, being tipped over by the appearance of flight simulator in addition to all the other stuff which had them hovering over the buy button. In this respect it is a piece of a larger puzzle and maybe a more important one than we imagine.

MS can certainly afford better analysis tools than you or I and they came to the conclusion that it was worth making a flight sim. And remember that not all of it is about making money on that sim, it's about leveraging technology and corporate identity too. When was the last time the mainstream media had a news story about an MS game being released? But we've seen that occur this week several times for the new sim and it's great PR for a company which most people equate with Excel and the Blue Screen of Death.

Edited August 7, 20205 yr by Chock

18 minutes ago, LHookins said:

MSFS is how they will learn the difference.

Hook

Obviously in my opinion, they won't want to learn the difference. That’s the point I'm getting at. As a percentage of those that will want to learn the difference, the number will be insignificant to Microsoft. I'm not stating they won't pull nee gamers in, I'm saying the number they will pull in won't be anything to shout about. 

2 minutes ago, Chock said:

A lot of this is true, but what is unquantifiable to us at least, probably not to MS in at least some respect, is how much of a straw to a camel's back is an individual game or sim on Gamepass?

We don't know how many people will be teetering on the buy button for a gamepass, being tipped over by the appearance of flight simulator in addition to all the other stuff which had them hovering over the buy button. In this respect it is a piece of a larger puzzle and maybe a more important one than we imagine.

I just can't see that number being high enough to make it a 'win' for Microsoft. 

13 minutes ago, shawty1984 said:

I just can't see that number being high enough to make it a 'win' for Microsoft. 

Flight Sim for MS was never solely about directly-linked financial gain, sure they want to make money with it, but it was also about pushing technological capabilities and creating a more likeable corporate identity for a business which typically is seen as being austere and stuffy. These efforts make money too, but not directly.

Why do you think petrol companies spend large amounts of money on advertising? On the face of it, it would seem like they don't need to spend any at all. It's not like you can decide not to buy petrol for your car, or that you always choose to pull in at a Shell station because you saw their advert on telly; nope you pull in at the next petrol station you get to when you've taken your fuel gauge roulette game as far as you dared.

They spend the money because they want to be seen to be lovely, and progressive etc. MS wants to be seen as a technology leader, and they have been this week, all over mainstream TV, and it wasn't because of the latest version of their media player software. Corporate identity.

Edited August 7, 20205 yr by Chock

24 minutes ago, shawty1984 said:

Obviously in my opinion, they won't want to learn the difference.

Go back and read Chock's description of a typical RPG.  These are people who are used to learning complex systems, analyzing them, and using that for planning.  They'll learn the PMDG level aircraft faster than you did, and be better at it, because that's what they do.  All the time.

And there's more to aviation than jet airliners, thank God.  

Hook

12 minutes ago, Chock said:

Flight Sim for MS was never solely about directly-linked financial gain, sure they want to make money with it, but it was also about pushing technological capabilities and creating a more likeable corporate identity for a business which typically is seen as being austere and stuffy. These efforts make money too, but not directly.

Why do you think petrol companies spend large amounts of money on advertising? On the face of it, it would seem like they don't need to spend any at all. It's not like you can decide not to buy petrol for your car, or that you always choose to pull in at a Shell station because you saw their advert on telly; nope you pull in at the next petrol station you get to when you've taken your fuel gauge roulette game as far as you dared.

They spend the money because they want to be seen to be lovely, and progressive etc. MS wants to be seen as a technology leader, and they have been this week, all over mainstream TV, and it wasn't because of the latest version of their media player software. Corporate identity.

I disagree with your petrol analogy. If there was just one petrol company, you would have a point, but there isn't. 

I always pull in at a shell petrol station because I believe their Shell V Power is the best. But how many people do you believe fill up at a Shell garage using Shell V Power? Not many because not many will be bothered or even know what V Power is or why it's wanted or what it can help with. Which is the same for MFS, both are niche products. 

2 minutes ago, LHookins said:

Go back and read Chock's description of a typical RPG.  These are people who are used to learning complex systems, analyzing them, and using that for planning.  They'll learn the PMDG level aircraft faster than you did, and be better at it, because that's what they do.  All the time.

And there's more to aviation than jet airliners, thank God.  

Hook

I don't need to, I've already read it. I'm stating that flight simulation is a niche product. That’s the whole point of the debate. 

16 minutes ago, Chock said:

that you always choose to pull in at a Shell station

It's even more esoteric than that, because pulling into a Shell station is no guarantee that you're getting gas from Shell. That little factoid got some attention when Deepwater Horizon wrecked the Gulf of Mexico and people wanted to boycott BP. In my town, ironically, if they'd gotten gas from the BP station they'd have been boycotting it because even though it has a BP sign it was buying gas from another company. By getting it at the Holiday station people were unknowingly buying BP gas until a local TV station unearthed the story.

 

Just now, shawty1984 said:

I'm stating that flight simulation is a niche product. That’s the whole point of the debate. 

And we're all excited that MSFS will make it much less of a niche product, simply by attracting people who would never otherwise consider a flight sim.

Hook

Just now, LHookins said:

And we're all excited that MSFS will make it much less of a niche product, simply by attracting people who would never otherwise consider a flight sim.

Hook

Yep. Bring on the casuals. They drive a lot of investment in gaming. I'm tired of flight simming being a niche product. All that means is that good sim hardware is relatively rare and overpriced. 

Those "casuals" have wallets full of money that's just as good as the stuff we hardcore guys spend. And they will spend that money. Heck, there's a whole sim-hardware market that's popped up around farm sims. People are building simpits of John Deeres, and Logitech is selling a tractor steering wheel, control panel, and pedals. That would never have happened if Farming Simulator had not become surprisingly immensely popular. Attracting large numbers of potential new customers will only be a good thing from a sim-stuff-market point of view.

 

13 minutes ago, shawty1984 said:

I disagree with your petrol analogy. If there was just one petrol company, you would have a point, but there isn't. 

I always pull in at a shell petrol station because I believe their Shell V Power is the best. But how many people do you believe fill up at a Shell garage using Shell V Power? Not many because not many will be bothered or even know what V Power is or why it's wanted or what it can help with. Which is the same for MFS, both are niche products. 

Maybe you do, sometimes I do too, because I drive a three litre V6 and want some decent octane petrol in my car in addition to what is in its LPG tank.

However, if you ask the average person what octane rating Esso's standard petrol is, they won't know, but I bet you they'll be able to identify that Esso used a tiger on its adverts for the power and environmental care connotations it engendered, and they'll know the slogan 'put a tiger in your tank', which says a lot about why people pull into petrol stations, and that's probably got more to do with what crisps they know it sells rather than what petrol is coming out of the pumps.

(If you read this and know that Esso's standard petrol is 87 octane, you get ten points)

Edited August 7, 20205 yr by Chock