I bet you're the only guy in the universe that could win a fight with his wife.

Actually I now have two science teachers that say the aircraft will not fly although I will admit that I do not have complete faith in them. As I have said, I have doubts as to whether or not I am right as this is not in the realm of what I normally do. What keeps me thinking that I might be right is that dumb toy car thing, if a toy car remains stationery with force applied to it to move it "forward" then the same would be true for an airplane. The engines supply the force to push the plane forward while a finger or whatever supplies the force to push a toy car forward. What do I know, I just own and run a couple of companies that have nothing to do with flight, physics or science really. :-) Michael would you mind if I picked your brain if I need to on this experiment? I think it is wise to have people on both sides of an issue to make sure all of the bases are covered. Apparently you have far more knowledge that might be helpful in this than I do. We'll see about a real wager, as things progress perhaps we can set something up. Maybe we could do something like the 744F when it comes out, if I can complete this before then. That would be fun. We should talk about it as I get closer to experiment time so we can both name an add-on that we want at that time. I am going to have a lot of fun with this, win or lose!Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

> Michael would you mind if I picked your brain if I need to on>this experiment?Not sure how I can be of help remotely but yes, I am available.Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/pmdg_744F.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

>Actually I now have two science teachers that say the>aircraft will not flyRight. Because you probably told them, "the aircraft doesn't move relative to the ground."See, if an aircraft doesn't move (maybe because you chained it to a tree or something) then it wont take off. The point that everyone has been trying to explain, is that a treadmill cannot stop an aircraft from moving.Go back to your science teacher and give them the powerpoint slides that I posted at the start of this thread.> Michael would you mind if I picked your brain if I need to on>this experiment? I think it is wise to have people on both>sides of an issue to make sure all of the bases are covered.Don't waste your time. You'll set something up and the plane will move forward, and then you'll just claim that the treadmill didn't move fast enough. You're not going to change your position.

Excuse me?! Who are you to say that I will not change my position? I am perhaps the one person in this forum will always take honesty and truth over my ego! This experiment will be done carefully to ensure that the results are accurate and then if I am proven wrong I will change my position. Who the heck are you to make such a statement? Something bothering you about me doing this experiment or do you just have such a poor view of people that you think everyone is a liar and a cheat? Do not make such insinuations about people that you do not know, you could be shown as a fool. I have said in almost, if not every post that I could be wrong, have I not? Some people!!!!!!!!!!! By the way I'll be happy to include you in any way in this experiment so you can ensure that I am honest in this since you obviously doubt it. Make an accusation, you better be ready to back it up!Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

"Don't waste your time. You'll set something up and the plane will move forward, and then you'll just claim that the treadmill didn't move fast enough. You're not going to change your position."Now YOU'RE the one who is being silly.Chris Low.

Well gee Phil, I've had this debate several times already. And guess what, you're not the first person to perform the experiment. For example:http://videos.streetfire.net/player.aspx?f...8D-D6BA1A43A06BAnd I've shown that to people like you who refuse to change your position. Without exception, you guys look at the video and say, "well that wasn't really an airplane" or some nonsense like that.See here's the thing. You don't need a real 747. You don't even need a skateboard and a fan. All you need is the analogy that I made to a person pulling himself along on monkey bars. That's it. That is sufficient to answer the question.

I don't want to belittle anyone but I am just going to give my opinion here. The link that you posted of the video is not very convincing to me only because what I can see does not look like it was done very scientifically. I only watched it twice and I did not read any background about it but it is way too simple to provide definitive proof in my opinion. I will do this on a much grander scale, I will use an RC plane and some sort of treadmill that is motor driven. More than likely I will use similar engines in both to be able to provide the exact amount of power in both the plane and the treadmill and at the exact same time. That is something that I will verify ten times over before the experiment is run or else the experiment is invalid to this arguement. I don't see how this was done in the video and this is extremely important to the arguement. While that video did not convince me due to it's crude nature that does not mean that I will not change my mind once I am presented with a real experiment, as you seem to imply. Next I want to say that your monkey bar analagy does not hold water with me unless the aircraft can sprout arms and pull itself across the monkey bars over the runway. Maybe some of the theory is the same but if you are going to prove something you have to do it within the terms of the arguement not with whatever comes to mind. While some of the basic theory may be the same you end up comparing apples to walnuts. I am out to prove or disprove that a plane can take off if a treadmill can apply the exact amount of power in reverse as the airplane. You can bet your life that my experiment will leave no room for doubt and further that my position will remain constant with the results of that experiment. I will not change my position until I have proof, I should not have to. I am not a sheep who believes something because someone else says it is fact. I have given your arguements due consideration and you may be right but I still think there is a chance that my idea that the plane will not take off could be right. For years people insisted that the world was flat, people even went to jail for saying otherwise but science proved them wrong. I will let science provide me with the answer. Too many people buy into what they are told by others and too many people take as fact things that they should not, I will not do that. As well too many people are foolish enough to believe that everything they think is right, I try to avoid doing that and the proof is in my posts here, stating that I may be wrong. In the end I think that it is fun to find the truth using experiments, don't think that I am trying to prove you wrong, I am trying to find the answer to a puzzle, that is all. I am not here to debate you, just to simply state, like you did, what I think. Just please do not presume to say that I will not change my mind if the facts bear out what you say, I'll be the first one to come here and say that you were right. Take care, Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

>may be wrong. In the end I think that it is fun to find the>truth using experiments, don't think that I am trying to prove>you wrong, I am trying to find the answer to a puzzle, that is>all. Philip,There is nothing wrong with conducting experiments. This is how laws of physics get verified. Have you heard of Einstein's famous 'mental' experiments. He was running experiments in his mind about people falling in elevators while conducting some electromagnetic experiments inside those elevators. Now, truly no one even Einstein could arrange for falling elevators with people in vaccum. Yet he not only conducted such theoretical experiments but he even knew what the outcome would be. I in no way compare myself to Einstein but conducting simple Newtonian expertiments in your head is part of every physcist's job description. This one happens to fall under the category "it is elementary dr. Watson" but there is nothing wrong with trying to conduct such experiments. Bear in mind however that conducting experiments and know how to interpret results are two different things - as we know experiments are rarely perfect and can easily lead into false intepretations.Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/pmdg_744F.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

Michael,I agree with you that no experiment is perfect, I wish they were but no go. I realize that I can not hope to get absolutely the same amount of "thrust" from both the aircraft and the treadmill but I am going to get it as close as humanly possible. Perhaps if I were a physicist I could solve this problem in my head but sadly I am more of a business person than anything. I know computers inside and out, I can do your taxes, I can run a corporation but my physics training is lacking. :-) I have always loved science but my training in it is lacking. I guess that is why I keep saying that I could be wrong since I know my "shortcomings" and I am not afraid to admit them. It's just too bad that in general people are too quick to pass judgement, they could say that I am stupid for thinking what I do about this but on the other hand I could say that they are dumb because they don't know how to prepare and read a profit and loss statement. :-) Back to the experiment. I guess that is why I am getting some outside help to conduct this experiment because I know all too well that to properly conduct and interpret a scientific experiment you need people that have some knowledge in the field. In this case as long as I can ensure that the power output of both items are as close to equal as I can get them then it should be easy to determine if the plane will fly or not. On a side note, this experiment gives me the perfect reason to go out and buy the RC airplane that I have been wanting so I do have another motive for doing this. :-)Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

>they could say that I am stupid for>thinking what I do about this but on the other hand I could>say that they are dumb because they don't know how to prepare>and read a profit and loss statement. :-)Since you do know how to prepare a profit/loss statement, it seems obvious that I should accept what you have to say about them. If I told you that your profit/loss statement was wrong, then you would be justified in calling me stupid.Similarly, since you do not know physics, you should accept the judgement of those who do.It's fine if you want to perform an experiment, but sometimes that's not possible. You will never be able to accelerate something to 50% of the speed of light, so you'll never be able to "see for yourself" if it becomes more massive. It's self-defeating to refuse to believe something until you see it done. In the case of the airplane on the treadmill, the physics is really quite simple. You should accept the word of those who know.