Another Noob IFR Question... switching from VFR to IFR

[Virtual-Chris 682]

So I think I've answered my own question... the procedure is to request a "Pop-up IFR clearance" from ATC.  It's pretty common.

Now my question is how to do this in the Sim, should I need it.  Someone mentioned above an option may appear on the ATC option list for "request clearance for instrument FP"... does anyone know what triggers that option to appear?

 

[eslader 1,815]

1 hour ago, Virtual-Chris said:

 It would seem obvious that if a trained IFR pilot with a G1000 gets into soup unexpectedly, they will certainly use the tools available to them to either get out of it, or even proceed as planned using GPS and instruments.  There has to be a process for that, right?  

It's still VFR into IMC, because you were operating under VFR and then went into IMC regardless of whether or not you have an instrument rating. The procedure for all pilots should be the same - 180 turn and get back into VMC. You don't want to proceed as planned because even if you're really good at instrument flying, if you aren't flying with an IFR flight plan under ATC guidance, then ATC does not know where you are, and you do not know where other planes are, so you risk a midair. That's why you want to get back into VMC and then decide what to do (go around the weather, go elsewhere, or file a flight plan and go IFR). Obviously, this doesn't count in MSFS because ATC doesn't know where half the planes are anyway. 😉

If it's some oddball situation like sometimes happens in far northern latitudes where the clouds suddenly descend and you find yourself in IMC, it's time to get on the horn with ATC and get on their radar (literally) before you run into someone else.

The trigger for "request clearance for instrument fp" is that you made an instrument flight plan before you started the flight. There's no current way to do this while in the air in the sim.

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by eslader

[Virtual-Chris 682]

5 minutes ago, eslader said:

It's still VFR into IMC, because you were operating under VFR and then went into IMC regardless of whether or not you have an instrument rating. The procedure for all pilots should be the same - 180 turn and get back into VMC. You don't want to proceed as planned because even if you're really good at instrument flying, if you aren't flying with an IFR flight plan under ATC guidance, then ATC does not know where you are, and you do not know where other planes are, so you risk a midair. That's why you want to get back into VMC and then decide what to do (go around the weather, go elsewhere, or file a flight plan and go IFR). Obviously, this doesn't count in MSFS because ATC doesn't know where half the planes are anyway. 😉

If it's some oddball situation like sometimes happens in far northern latitudes where the clouds suddenly descend and you find yourself in IMC, it's time to get on the horn with ATC and get on their radar (literally) before you run into someone else.

The trigger for "request clearance for instrument fp" is that you made an instrument flight plan before you started the flight. There's no current way to do this while in the air in the sim.

 

I need to test this, but I think the option to request clearance for instrument FP may have appeared on a flight where I initially planned it as VFR (GPS) and then mid flight added an ILS approach in the G1000. I’m hoping that’s it. Of course it’s a bit backwards but that’s better than nothing. 

[sd_flyer 6,089]

I request pop up clearance very often. I'm flying Southern California and marine layer is common occurrence in costal area. Many times I depart VFR just to find out than one hour later that marine layer covered arrival airport much faster than TAF predicted. So pop up IFR clearance is a norm. I have never been denied one. However, once in a while when SoCal approach is busy they would ask me to call back in 15-20 min and give me clearance.

Also it's no uncommon to file IFR VFR on top just to get over marine layer at departure airport, do some airwork with a student, and ask for IFR clearance again afterword. So you don need file every time.

Most airport in US we would get IFR clearance ether via clearance delivery freq or ground. None-towered airports or afterhours in part time tower airports I would file  IFR via FSS on the phone, then within a time window when airborne contact controller and continue.   

By the way I used to file IFR in perfectly good weather just to get around class Bravo airspace with ease ! 🙂

[sd_flyer 6,089]

21 minutes ago, eslader said:

It's still VFR into IMC, because you were operating under VFR and then went into IMC regardless of whether or not you have an instrument rating. The procedure for all pilots should be the same - 180 turn and get back into VMC. You don't want to proceed as planned because even if you're really good at instrument flying, if you aren't flying with an IFR flight plan under ATC guidance, then ATC does not know where you are, and you do not know where other planes are, so you risk a midair. That's why you want to get back into VMC and then decide what to do (go around the weather, go elsewhere, or file a flight plan and go IFR). Obviously, this doesn't count in MSFS because ATC doesn't know where half the planes are anyway. 😉

If it's some oddball situation like sometimes happens in far northern latitudes where the clouds suddenly descend and you find yourself in IMC, it's time to get on the horn with ATC and get on their radar (literally) before you run into someone else.

The trigger for "request clearance for instrument fp" is that you made an instrument flight plan before you started the flight. There's no current way to do this while in the air in the sim.

 

Also wroth mentioning in US class Alpha that start from 18000 MSL all flights are IFR disregard weather

[G550flyer 1,041]

13 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I’m guessing filing an IFR plan mid flight is pretty unusual

I'll give you an example of how I did it. I was departing from McGuire AFB NJ in a C141B. Taxying down to the runway end, my co pilot informed the tower that we would be ready upon reaching. Pulling up to the hold line, tower informed that Philly was not ready to accept us and there would be a departure delay. We were headed to the West coast to Cali. While waiting, another departure going North pulled up and tower requested we take the active and taxi to the next turn off and hold their for IFR release so they could get the Northbound out. As I took the runway, I had the co ask for a release update. As we cleared the runway, tower said there was a 45 minute delay expected. I then had the co cancel our IFR plan and request a VFR departure to the west. We departed and headed West bound until we were clear of Phily's airspace. He hit up flight service and requested IFR using the rest of the flight plan. It can be done, but usually you have a need to do so. For me, Phily was cutting into our drinking time with their shenanigans.  

[marsman2020 1,310]

I tried to do this in-sim last night. 

Started cold and dark (no flight plan in the world map), entered the departure/destination with a couple waypoints inbetween into the G1000 (so much mouse scrolling...but possible).

At this point the ATC menu offered options for request a takeoff directly (VFR) as well as the "Request Clearances for IFR Flight Plan" option.

I requested the takeoff directlyVFR.  At that point it seems you end up on a 'VFR only' branch of the in-sim ATC menus, and there is no way to request to file the IFR flight plan.  The IFR menu option is gone.

It may be that if you take off IFR, then cancel it, then you can pick it up again later, have not tried that sequence yet.

The in-sim ATC is kind of cookie cutter at this point, not a complete match for real world.

[Virtual-Chris 682]

1 hour ago, marsman2020 said:

I tried to do this in-sim last night. 

Started cold and dark (no flight plan in the world map), entered the departure/destination with a couple waypoints inbetween into the G1000 (so much mouse scrolling...but possible).

At this point the ATC menu offered options for request a takeoff directly (VFR) as well as the "Request Clearances for IFR Flight Plan" option.

I requested the takeoff directlyVFR.  At that point it seems you end up on a 'VFR only' branch of the in-sim ATC menus, and there is no way to request to file the IFR flight plan.  The IFR menu option is gone.

It may be that if you take off IFR, then cancel it, then you can pick it up again later, have not tried that sequence yet.

The in-sim ATC is kind of cookie cutter at this point, not a complete match for real world.

My theory still needs testing, but I'm wondering if you start on VFR and then activate an ILS approach, if you can activate the ATC IFR prompt and get it to switch over. There is an ATC prompt for "request clearance for instrument FP" that appears - I've seen it... I just don't know what I did to trigger it.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Virtual-Chris

[marsman2020 1,310]

Just now, Virtual-Chris said:

My theory still needs testing, but I'm wondering if you start on VFR and then activate an ILS approach, if you can activate the ATC IFR menu.

You just ignore the ingame ATC and do whatever you want with the navaids.  They transmit all the time after all.  It's just not how it would be done in the real world.

[Virtual-Chris 682]

Just now, marsman2020 said:

You just ignore the ingame ATC and do whatever you want with the navaids.  They transmit all the time after all.  It's just not how it would be done in the real world.

Yeah, but there is an option to "request clearance for instrument FP" that can appear under some circumstances... which seems to be the closest thing we might have to a pop-up IFR clearance.

[kama2004 74]

In Canada you can. There is a lot of remote airport without ATC and flight plan with a portion VFR or IFR are accepted.

In several small airport, you can also depart VFR then get the clearance when you are high enough to contact ATC, They can issue a clearance that is only valid after a certain altitude e.g. CLIMB VFR TO 4500 ft THEN YOUR  IFR CLEARANCE IS VALID.

You can also request an ATC clearance on the spot when in a delicate situation. Last WE, I was flying toward La Tuque airport (CYLQ) which has no instrument approach. The cloud was broken with small opening and ATC minimum altitude was 4000 ft. I had to cancel IFR to descend into a hole between clouds in VFR (over a lake.. less relief hazard) to see if I can get to the airport. I had advised ATC that if I was unsuccessful to reach the airport, I will climb back to get a new IFR clearance to an alternate airport.

So yes it can happen in general aviation in several context.

[turbomax 3,307]

https://pilotworkshop.com/tips/pop_up_clearance/
https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/pop-up-ifr/
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/1361/how-do-you-request-a-pop-up-ifr-clearance

[Virtual-Chris 682]

3 hours ago, turbomax said:

https://pilotworkshop.com/tips/pop_up_clearance/
https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/pop-up-ifr/
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/1361/how-do-you-request-a-pop-up-ifr-clearance

Yeah, but can you do it in the sim? That’s the question now. 

[turbomax 3,307]

how to pop-up IFR that is here the question, which I share with you. I only wanted to illustrate how it's done in the real world.

[Phantoms 800]

I flew from KSAV to TXKF in the Cirrus SR-22 today/tonight. A long five and a half four flight. I flew IFR and made a Low Altitude flight plan inside MSFS World Map. I use ATC and most of the trip was between 5000 and 11000ft (trying to avoid weather) with all Atitude changes cleared through ATC. Somewhere between WTHRS and DNSTN,  ATC instructed me to climb and maintain FL190 (Cirrus has a ceiling of FL 170). While contemplating that, ATC quickly came back on and instructed me to climb and maintain FL240. Needless to say this wasn't happening. I canceled IFR and reinstated the flight plan several times after this, each time with ATC giving me a crazy altitude to climb too. I finally caught them assigning me 12000 and put in a request for 9000 which they told me to expect after reaching and maintaining 12000. Finished up my flight and came into Bermuda as the Moon was just over the island.

All in all I probably cancelled and reinstated my flight plan 5 or 6 times after ATC started going crazy. While I don't believe you can do it if you don't start with a flight plan, it's very doable if you did.

On a side note, my AP behaved beautifully. It didn't miss a beat the whole flight and flew the RNAV approach like a champ. Usually it shuts off 2 or 3 times on a 1-2hr flight, but it handled this long flight just wonderfully.

And the range on the Cirrus is very nice. After dodging weather most of the flight, dealing with the ATC problem climbing and descending, etc, I parked with approx. 13 gals. to spare

 

Today was the first full day I've had to fly since MSFS launched. Usually have to sneak in short flights between life.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Phantoms