Any Brunner yoke users?

[regis9 4,016]

Yes the Brunner is expensive, but it was a splurge purchase when I made the decision I was not going to try and get my RL license (too many medical hoops for me to jump through) and decided instead to get some top notch gear.

IIRC at the time the price differential between the CLS-E NG and the Yoko was not very much, small enough that I eventually decided the FFB option was the way to go despite the Yoko having greater travel.

As mentioned above, this is not just about feeling engine vibration, that’s one of many sensations the yoke provides, others off the top of my head:

- resistance increases as air speed increases on non-hydraulically controlled aircraft

- You can turn on a hydraulics setting to have the yoke emulate the feel of an aircraft with hydraulically controlled ailerons/elevator.

- turbulence will be felt in the yoke

- it can simulate elevator droop at low/no speed, with the yoke “coming alive” as you accelerate down the runway

- stall shaker simulated

- you can alter the amount of force required on each axis to simulate different aircraft types/sizes etc.

There might be something else I’m missing.

Edited September 18, 2021 by regis9

[Rocky_53 1,581]

On 12/30/2020 at 12:21 PM, skipph said:

Give the Fulcrum a look. Very high quality for half the YOKO. price.

Yup, just ordered one 

[LesNeilson 2]

On 9/15/2021 at 1:32 AM, mikea76 said:

I have the CLS-E yoke, I modified a profile  to use with the arrow.  I like it, feels pretty close to me. I can try to upload it to the cloud or share it with you.

I'd like to give it a try, yes please! Will I find it on the profile cloud?

[joedreamliner787 0]

I have the CLS-E MK-II yoke and rudders on the way. Does anyone possibly have any Beech Baron profiles? 

Thank you for all the posts! Learing alot about the yoke prior to its arrival.

[regis9 4,016]

I think there is a Baron profile you can download through the Brunner software/profile database?

[joedreamliner787 0]

On 10/9/2021 at 8:09 AM, regis9 said:

I think there is a Baron profile you can download through the Brunner software/profile database?

Thank you, I'll check once it comes in and I have access to the database 

[jeywhy 2]

Bill

You have probably made your choice and are up and running with whatever control system you bought. So this addition to your post will be of more importance to those people considering buying a Brunner yoke and possibly rudder peddles.

I came across this post when researching the Brunner products and having read so much about them I made the financial plunge and bought the CLSE MkII Yoke and peddles. That was several months ago and I now feel as though I can add  some thoughts to the topic.

My sim of choice, at present is X Plane 11 but have been addicted to flight sims since the early 90s and I do not enter the "this sim is better than that sim" debate as each has its merits and short falls. I will be keeping an eye on FS2020 and pick my time to purchase or not.

Ok my thoughts on the Brunner based on usage, speculation and extrapolation. These are mine and other people may not agree, fair enough.

Hardware = solid kit.

It needs to be as the force feed back is strong. You will need to mount the yoke and rudder securely and fix your chair because any chair on casters will move  backward when you push against the rudder peddles.

I have little experience in actual flying, a couple of hours in a Cessna 172 a few less in a 150 and  flights in a chipmunk and a glider. Therefore, it is difficult to compare reality to sim when comparing the force feed back of the Brunner controls.

I can remember that after take off in the Cessna 172, pushing the yoke forward whilst trimming the nose down felt like pushing against a brick wall until the aircraft was back in trim. The Cessna 172 profile I downloaded from the Brunner website emulated that effect very well. As did the whole stiffening up of the controls as the aircraft accelerated down the runway prior to rotating. I found the Brunner controls very evocative of the small time I had hands on with the 172. Having the luxury of a sim I have subsequently set the trim a little nose down from the TO position when flying this aircraft, not fully loaded, which makes  the take off less energetic. Sorry going off topic.

Software = RTFM.

If your useless at constructing flatpack furniture (I don't need to read the instructions, I can do this) then you will not be very successful at setting up the Brunner kit.  My wife has a  knowing grin on her face when she sees me ticking off each item in the assembly instructions for such furniture.  I read the Brunner instructions several times prior to getting hands on and did not fall foul of a missed step. It is easily done as other people have stated in their posts.

The interface between the hardware and the sim is via a programme called CLS2Sim and there is a helpfile that needs to be studied. What is it like? Very factual but it only gives a hint as to what the programme does. To use and analogy. Imagine giving a person instructions to drive a car which said: this peddle makes the car go faster; this peddle makes the car slow down; and turn this wheel to change direction. Then you gave them a formula one racing car and tell them to drive it. 

I used the Brunner website to download profiles then examined them whilst reading the helpfile/manual. I also trawled the internet for posts from Brunner owners regarding profiles. Overtime I have gained a little understanding of the software. It is very comprehensive and if you are willing to invest the time it will pay rewards.

I mistakenly thought that the default profile would do as a starting place to load up and go fly an aircraft, wrong. I now view it as a blank piece of canvas from which an aircraft profile should be made. Even better, if I am looking to make a profile I will download one from the website, make a copy of that and adjust it to the aircraft I want to fly. I have not uploaded a profile to the website, but if I feel so brave to do so, I will give credit to the originator on whose shoulders I have stood.

Now here is the rub. I would like my profile to match the real life handling of the aircraft but trying to find that information is almost impossible. If you read a pilots notes they will say something like "It handles like a Cub", " The controls are light but firm", "The aircraft handles positively when in trim but is heavy out of trim". All very subjective and not really helpful. The best I have found so far is a report on the handling characteristics of a C-47, written just after WW2 and it actually states the pound force required to move the yoke in several distinct sections of the flight envelope. I have used that, subjectively of course to inform my DC-3 profile.

Conclusion = For me this was a good decision to buy the kit.

One of the reasons I bought the yoke and rudder is that I wanted to have control feed back to help cross wind landings in aircraft equipped with conventional undercarriages. I have discovered that there are limitations in flying sims: 1) The fidelity of the sim; 2) the fidelity of the equipment used (PC controls etc.) ; 3) the fidelity of the aircraft modelled in the sim, and of course; 4) the competency of the fool trying to fly the aircraft. 

My cross wind landings have improved because of the kit, item number 2. I can still encounter a ground loop when I am only taxiing, item number 1) and I can still have a ground loop on landing, item number 4. However I am thoroughly enjoying myself especially as the ground loops occur less and less and the "smooth landing" notifications become more frequent. 

Enough ramblings I am going to practice with a few circuits 🙂

 

 

[Waldo Pepper 1,953]

On 12/29/2020 at 1:08 PM, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

I use a FFB2 and agree that FFB makes a massive difference in GA aircraft. Things like holding a steady attitude with stick/yoke and adjusting the forces out with trim instead of pretty much flying with trim the way people do with a non FFB device is just one example.

BUT there is a catch22 with manufacturers not supporting FFB as the licencing fees are high and most sims do not support FFB that well --- and the games not supporting FFB as there are not many FFB manufacturers,  basically all that is currently about is professional expensive stuff like the Brunner or really really ancient devices like my MS FFB2 (even though there are stacks of FFB devices for stuff like car racing) . 

Hopefully it will change.

I used to own the original MS FFB and the FFB2.   Loved those sticks.

I'll never be in the market for a yoke,  but I've installed 2x 50 pound springs on each axis of my VKB Gunfighter for the same reason.   Works very well with their 200mm extension.

The moment anyone releases a high end FFB stick for around $1000usd,  giver or take,  I'm in.    I really miss FFB.  The Gunfighter has the accuracy of those old sticks,  but no FFB. 

[regis9 4,016]

1 hour ago, jeywhy said:

 

Bill

You have probably made your choice and are up and running with whatever control system you bought. So this addition to your post will be of more importance to those people considering buying a Brunner yoke and possibly rudder peddles.

 

This is a very good, detailed, informative post and I would agree with what is written here.

[michaelray 236]

On 9/15/2021 at 11:16 AM, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

I ended up going with a Fulcrum. The Honeycomb was a possible, but has limited elevator movement and is a bit pro-sumer and plastic and the Yoko looks excellent but only has 45 degree on the aileron axis .  The Fulcrum ticked all the boxes for a non FFB yoke (all metal including the handle, 8" aileron movement, 90 degrees each way on elevator).

However if MSFS actually supported proper FFB (they seem to think FFB is just for gimmicky stuff like wheel rumble and turbulence effects) I would definitely have budgeted the extra money for a Brunner.

Glenn did you just order this from the Fulcrum UK website for delivery to Aus?

I assume no re-sellers in Aus.

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

3 hours ago, michaelray said:

Glenn did you just order this from the Fulcrum UK website for delivery to Aus?

I assume no re-sellers in Aus.

Yep.

The freight company they use is good but it is pretty pricey and you have GST, so you do have to add a few hundred to the final price.  I think it came in for me, all up, at about $AUD850 more or less ?  It seems like because it is under $1000 you pay no customs duty - but you do get hit with GST .

Gerry Harvey and his GST thing is very annoying.  It costs the Australian Government way more to collect the sub-$1000 GST than they get from it and most of the stuff that people get from overseas like screens for phones etc is not available in Australia anyway.  Annoyingly, there are some unusual spares for work we can no longer get at all because the overseas suppliers do not want to mess around with Australian GST.

Ironically, I very much doubt GST made any difference to Gerry's sales, most people avoid him because of Harvey Norman's truly awful after-sales service (I used to work for them so I know what they are like)  not because they can get a cheaper price.  He got the change through because of his big political donations, not because it was actually a sensible thing to do.

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Glenn Fitzpatrick

[michaelray 236]

3 hours ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

Yep.

The freight company they use is good but it is pretty pricey and you have GST, so you do have to add a few hundred to the final price.  I think it came in for me, all up, at about $AUD850 more or less ?  It seems like because it is under $1000 you pay no customs duty - but you do get hit with GST .

Gerry Harvey and his GST thing is very annoying.  It costs the Australian Government way more to collect the sub-$1000 GST than they get from it and most of the stuff that people get from overseas like screens for phones etc is not available in Australia anyway.  Annoyingly, there are some unusual spares for work we can no longer get at all because the overseas suppliers do not want to mess around with Australian GST.

Ironically, I very much doubt GST made any difference to Gerry's sales, most people avoid him because of Harvey Norman's truly awful after-sales service (I used to work for them so I know what they are like)  not because they can get a cheaper price.  He got the change through because of his big political donations, not because it was actually a sensible thing to do.

 

Thanks Glenn. Out of stock at the moment but I will re-visit this once they come back.

Totally agree about Gerry Harvey. I avoid their group of stores like the plague that they are.

[Ixoye 1,822]

I have a Yoko+ which I am very happy with, but I get a little tempted on a Brunner when reading this thread, Force Feedback is the future and I am surprised that not more manufacturers are investing in it.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Ixoye

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

8 hours ago, michaelray said:

Thanks Glenn. Out of stock at the moment but I will re-visit this once they come back.

 

They always have more orders than they can immediately fill.  Basically you put in a "pre-order" (no commitment or payment needed)  and once you get to the top of the list and they have one ready to ship to you they let you know and if you still wish to go ahead you pay for it and they ship it.

[AirBen 0]

Sounds like many here are having good success with the Brunner yoke in X plane. What about in MSFS? Does it utilize SimConnect for the FFB?

I've also seen very little about the trim? Sure it works if you trim using the switches on the yoke, but what if you were to trim using a 3rd party trim wheel, like on the Honeycomb Bravo quadrant? Do those trim changes get fed back to the Brunner yoke in MSFS2020 via the SimConnect dll?