NASA to start UFO investigations...

[martin-w 3,238]

2 hours ago, sightseer said:

Can you describe what would be your acceptable scientific review and evidence? 

 

I was answering the question "where do we go from here". And the independent scientific analysis with the scientific method properly applied, is the best next step. And of course some are trying to make that happen. Avi Loeb for example with his efforts.

I would say that given the type of evidence we have, currently, little that can be regarded as definitive can be gleaned. I think it would take what I described above, but even then, without new, better evidence there's a limit to what even extensive scientific analysis can learn. 

So yes, to really know for sure what we are dealing with and if the alien hypothesis has merit, you really would need an alien spaceship or interaction with alien beings. We really do need that physical evidence. 

It is claimed of course that the Pentagon or somebody has materials of alien origin. But again, its just claims, that evidence would need to be analysed by numerous scientific teams, in an unbiased fashion, from around the globe, and a consensus formed. Conveniently though, that hasn't happened, it just remains a claim.

 

[birdguy 3,943]

3 hours ago, martin-w said:

It is claimed of course that the Pentagon or somebody has materials of alien origin.

https://www.newsmax.com/us/pentagon-ufos-roswell-space/2021/02/13/id/1009928/

As for the 'metal that could remember itself' Max Brazel's son and the daughter of the sheriff at the time both said they had pieces of foil picked up at the crash site that would smooth itself out when crumpled up.  Max Brazel owned a small ranch and was the first person to come upon the site while riding his horse looking for stray cattle.  He thought it was an airlane crash and rode into Roswell and notified the sheriff who in turn notified Walker AFB who sent Major Marcel, the base intelligence officer, out to investigate.

Major Marcel was later flown to meet with General Ramey at Fort Worth Army Air Field.

According to Major Marcel General Ramey left the room with a small of of the debris Marcel brought with him and came back with another box with weather balloon debris in it.  Major Marcel had been trained in launching weather balloons at various army air force bases he served at.  He was ordered to pose with the weather balloon debris for press photographers.

Both Max Brasel's son and the Roswell sheriff's daughter had to turn in the foil pieces they were given to the Army Air Force.  (This was in 1947.  The US Air Force did not become a separate military branch until the following year, 1948)

I did a bit of research on this because a few years ago when I was with the Roswell Little Theater we had a performance of the incident for tourists during the Roswell 5th of July Independence Day and UFO Day weekend.  (The UFO debris was found by Max Brazel on July 5th.)

And once when in line at the bank I struck up a conversation with the elderly lady behind me.  She was the sheriff's daughter who played with that piece of foil.  She told me about it.

Major Marcel claimed to his dying day that what he found was extraterrestrial.

I have mixed feelings about it.  I just plain don't know and am not convinced either way.

Noel

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by birdguy
Additional person knowledge

[martin-w 3,238]

16 hours ago, birdguy said:

I have mixed feelings about it.  I just plain don't know and am not convinced either way.

 

I'm about as convinced that Roswell was Project Mogul and nothing to do with defective alien ships crashing as its possible to be.

Rancher Brazel who found the wreckage said this... 

“a large area of bright wreckage made up of rubber strips, tinfoil, and rather tough paper, and sticks.”

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/in-1947-high-altitude-balloon-crash-landed-roswell-aliens-never-left-180963917/

Something tells me that alien ships aren't composed of tough paper, rubber, sticks and tinfoil... balloons are.

Pretty certain I would say, that when the Mogul balloon crashed, they decided top blame it on aliens as a diversion, keep em talking about that and it will be dismissed by the Russians and others as more flying saucer nonsense. When that silly ploy failed because too much media attention resulted they switched to weather balloon.

Worth remembering that the "say its an alien saucer" ploy had been used before.

And I still maintain that hyper advanced, to us physics defying, alien spaceships, thousands of years in advance of us... don't crash when they meet our feeble atmosphere. Or rather, such an occurrence is extremely unlikely. 

It's now become about tourism for Roswell and selling alien stuff and money making for so called UFO researchers who can write books about it and add all manner of stuff to the story.

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by martin-w

[DaviiB 104]

21 hours ago, martin-w said:

 

I was answering the question "where do we go from here". And the independent scientific analysis with the scientific method properly applied, is the best next step. And of course some are trying to make that happen. Avi Loeb for example with his efforts.

I would say that given the type of evidence we have, currently, little that can be regarded as definitive can be gleaned. I think it would take what I described above, but even then, without new, better evidence there's a limit to what even extensive scientific analysis can learn. 

So yes, to really know for sure what we are dealing with and if the alien hypothesis has merit, you really would need an alien spaceship or interaction with alien beings. We really do need that physical evidence. 

It is claimed of course that the Pentagon or somebody has materials of alien origin. But again, its just claims, that evidence would need to be analysed by numerous scientific teams, in an unbiased fashion, from around the globe, and a consensus formed. Conveniently though, that hasn't happened, it just remains a claim.

 

I don't have the time to dig it up, but I believe there has been independent scientific analysis of this phenomena going on for quite some time. Their conclusion is that something very very strange is going on (and may go well beyond the 'aliens from space' conclusion.....though not to exclude it)

 

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

 

Pretty certain I would say, that when the Mogul balloon crashed, they decided top blame it on aliens as a diversion, keep em talking about that and it will be dismissed by the Russians and others as more flying saucer nonsense. When that silly ploy failed because too much media attention resulted they switched to weather balloon.

Worth remembering that the "say its an alien saucer" ploy had been used before.

It bothers me a little when people state there is "no evidence" for X, when it's clear they either didn't look, or their standard for evidence is 'exotic craft sitting on my front lawn'....or something to that effect.....That term 'no evidence' is mentioned in that Smithsonian article, and gives the impression of someone coming into a subject with bias.

On that note. Have you ever seen this memo from 1947? It does indicate a "lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits", but otherwise acknowledges the existence of the phenomenon, and performance characteristics that mirror what's being seen today.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20797978-twining-memo

Please consider as well that it has been demonstrated that there has been a fairly wide-ranging (and successful) effort, since at least the 1950's, to bury and/or discredit this subject throughout the military, government and media. Project Bluebook was all but mandated to debunk UFO sightings (regardless of the evidence), under the guise of investigating them. This is where the "swamp gas" explanation came from.

The subject was pushed off to the fringes and kept there, so serious discussion / analysis was almost impossible to have. That alone is more indicative of shenanigans than grifters on the other side trying to make a buck.

 

DB

[birdguy 3,943]

5 hours ago, martin-w said:

Rancher Brazel who found the wreckage said this... 

“a large area of bright wreckage made up of rubber strips, tinfoil, and rather tough paper, and sticks.”

Maybe you would like to read some more detailed information about Max Brazel and what happened to him following publication of the incident.  And keep in mind that relations between the military and civilians in 1947 were pretty tight.  When the military told you to do something you did it.  It was just after WW2 and Walker AFB was home to the 509th Bomb Group which deployed to Roswell Army Air Base from Tinian following the war.  At the time Roswellites were proud that they were home to the Enola Gay and the unit that dropped the atom bombs on Japan.

The balsa wood and rubber pieces and foil backed paper was not the FIRST story told by Brazel.  That the story he told after being held at Walker AAB and interrogated for a number of days.  

Just read the following.  You did say you had an open mind didn't you?  My position is I wasn't there so I don't know.  But I'm not buying the balsa wood and paper story as definitive.

This will take a while to read but it's pretty comprehensive.

https://www.nicap.org/rosbraz.htm

Noel

 

[martin-w 3,238]

5 hours ago, DaviiB said:

I don't have the time to dig it up, but I believe there has been independent scientific analysis of this phenomena going on for quite some time. Their conclusion is that something very very strange is going on (and may go well beyond the 'aliens from space' conclusion.....though not to exclude it)

 

You mean the current investigation? No definitive conclusions have been drawn. So far, the conclusion is that unidentified craft are involved and that they "seem to be" according to reports, manoeuvring in an unconventional way. The current conclusion is that there's no evidence for alien visitation but they aren't ruling it out. Its nothing like the scientific investigation required to get somewhere. We need a multitude of independent, talented scientific teams from around the world. Currently there are two individuals working for the current task force. 

There have been a handful of engineers and a one or two scientists who have joined forces and attempted to analyse the ATFLIR video's but given they couldn't even figure out that the gimbal object didn't rotate, we cant hope for anything useful from them.

 

5 hours ago, DaviiB said:

It bothers me a little when people state there is "no evidence" for X, when it's clear they either didn't look, or their standard for evidence is 'exotic craft sitting on my front lawn'....or something to that effect.....That term 'no evidence' is mentioned in that Smithsonian article, and gives the impression of someone coming into a subject with bias.

 

We do need physical evidence though. Without it there are a number of possible explanations. You can have radar recordings, eye witness reports and all manner of  "evidence" but that doesn't tell you if its an alien craft or a human technological breakthrough, or  a race of beings of human origin living under the ocean that have advanced beyond us (Atlantians) or time travellers, government disinformation, misunderstood natural phenomena or a number of other possibilities. I'm sure when the article says no evidence, they mean real evidence, scientific evidence, verifiable fact, not Bob who claimed to see a dead alien.

 

5 hours ago, DaviiB said:

Please consider as well that it has been demonstrated that there has been a fairly wide-ranging (and successful) effort, since at least the 1950's, to bury and/or discredit this subject throughout the military, government and media. Project Bluebook was all but mandated to debunk UFO sightings (regardless of the evidence), under the guise of investigating them. This is where the "swamp gas" explanation came from.

The subject was pushed off to the fringes and kept there, so serious discussion / analysis was almost impossible to have. That alone is more indicative of shenanigans than grifters on the other side trying to make a buck.

 

Indeed. In fact they lied and said they weren't interested in UFO's at all but then Elizondo leaked the videos and the existence of AATIP had to be officially confirmed. Shenanigans indeed, I agree. In fact Elizondo claims that the Pentagon tried to discredit him. 

 

Quote

 

Lue Elizondo's inspector general complaint asserts that officials have tried to discredit him since he went public.

 

The former Pentagon official who went public about reports of UFOs has filed a complaint with the agency’s inspector general claiming a coordinated campaign to discredit him for speaking out — including accusing a top official of threatening to tell people he was “crazy,” according to documents reviewed by POLITICO.

Lue Elizondo, a career counterintelligence specialist who was assigned in 2008 to work for a Pentagon program that investigated reports of “unmanned aerial phenomena,” filed the 64-page complaint to the independent watchdog on May 3 and has met several times with investigators, according to his legal team.

 

 

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/26/ufo-whistleblower-ig-complaint-pentagon-491098

I believe Harry Reid wrote a letter confirming that Elizondo did indeed do what he claimed.

As I said previously in the thread, something mysterious is going on. We shouldn't jump to conclusions though. Many of us think its an exciting prospect that there are friendly aliens buzzing around and want it to be true, well we have to put aside that bias and try to think logically and objectively and be unbiased. 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by martin-w

[birdguy 3,943]

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

Please consider as well that it has been demonstrated that there has been a fairly wide-ranging (and successful) effort, since at least the 1950's, to bury and/or discredit this subject throughout the military, government and media.

Since 1947 and the Roswell incident if what you read what Max Brazil said BEFORE he was detained for several days by the military and what he said later about the balsa wood rubber and paper backed foil.

And Major Marcel, the first military officer on the scene, contended all of his life that the wreckage was 'other worldly'. 

There is a vast difference between what Brazil said at first and then later after being held.

Add to that what local people said about the material both Brazil and Marcel brought back from the scene and showed local people and what the Air Force later put out.

Local people also said Max Brazil seldom had two nickels to rub together in his pocket.  He eked out a living on his ranch.  But after being held for several days by the military he suddenly had enough money to buy a meat locker plant in Alamogordo that he left the ranch to run.

Noel

[birdguy 3,943]

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

We do need physical evidence though.

There might be Martin.  The Roswell debris was said to have been trucked to Wright Patterson Army Air Field (now WPAFB).

Noel

[DaviiB 104]

8 hours ago, martin-w said:

 

You mean the current investigation?

No, civilian scientists. Look up Jacques Vallee and the invisible college. There is a modern version of the invisible college as well, with civilian scientists seriously looking into the phenomenon. (partially in-secret to keep their credibility intact I think) 

Here's a long, but very interesting read on Vallee and his 60-ish years of work: https://www.wired.com/story/jacques-vallee-still-doesnt-know-what-ufos-are/

TLDR:... and I'm paraphrasing a bit.... Vallee will be surprised and very disappointed if this turns out to be just physical vehicles and beings from another planet(s). 

.... and this is coming from a scientist who has been doing this work in-earnest for six decades (pre-Project Blue Book). 

This is one of the reasons I mentioned earlier that science may be missing something absolutely fundamental about the nature of the universe....maybe more than one 'something'. 

The diversity displayed by 'the phenomenon' may even suggest that we're not talking about A phenomenon, but multiple. 

 

RE: Shenanigans - Forming a modern task force only investigating sightings from one branch of the military, from the last 20 (ish) years, and completely ignoring mountains of older data is a joke, and sounds like a recipe for plausible deniability

DB

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by DaviiB

[Fielder 3,680]

At this time (1947) tape recording was something new. During WWII, der Fuher's speeches were recorded in high fidelity on tape, and the so called the live broadcasts were not live, they were recorded on tape. The Allies had no such tape recorders like the Germans did and were fooled as to the German high leader's actual location. Tape recorders in Allied nations at that time were wire recorders (you can see one which plays a prominent role in the follow up movie to Chinatown, Jack Nicholson). They had relatively poor fidelity, as did shellack record disc recordings. You could tell an audio signal on the radio had been recorded on wire or shellack.

The Germans were using acetate recording tape. But there was something even newer in 1947 which nobody but very few had seen: mylar. It looked like metal. Shiny, crinkly, and retains it's shape when released. Most Cassettes and VHS tapes are mylar. But this was wider tape, not 1/4". It had trademark protection symbols printed on it. These symbols were not writing but could look like that to an observer. Almost nobody in 1947 had seen anything like strips of Mylar. The American government had mylar to use in 1947. In a short few years it became common. You could buy reels of acetate or mylar recording tape.

(Edited because the German leader's real name is not allowed in the forum)

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Fielder

[Fielder 3,680]

Actually Mylar was a later trade name. The material was so new in 1947 that there were different versions made as a trial by Dupont to see which formulations were best. Dupont did not want to print numbers to identify the formulations, so they coded the ID with symbols only they knew at the factory. Typewriters could not print those symbols. They were keeping a low profile for patent purposes.

Mylar went into production in the early 1950's. In 1947 there was just these early forerunner reels of the material. The American government for instance had some. Most people had seen nothing like it before.

[martin-w 3,238]

7 hours ago, DaviiB said:

No, civilian scientists. Look up Jacques Vallee and the invisible college. There is a modern version of the invisible college as well, with civilian scientists seriously looking into the phenomenon. (partially in-secret to keep their credibility intact I think) 

 

That's not really what I'm referring to when I answered the question "what is required". Vallee is a computer scientist and after 60 years researching this still admits he doesn't know what we are dealing with. Some scientists claimed to be "working in secret" and Vallee a computer guy is far removed from what I said I believed was required. We need multipipe scientific research teams across the globe, the worlds talented scientists, multitude of peer reviewed research. That's not happening because the world most talented scientists and research teams are too busy trying to figure out what dark energy is and dark matter and formulate a quantum theory of gravity etc. They aren't interested in flying saucers. One day it may change and we may get some answers.

https://www.wired.com/story/jacques-vallee-still-doesnt-know-what-ufos-are/

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,238]

7 hours ago, DaviiB said:

.... and this is coming from a scientist who has been doing this work in-earnest for six decades (pre-Project Blue Book). 

This is one of the reasons I mentioned earlier that science may be missing something absolutely fundamental about the nature of the universe....maybe more than one 'something'. 

The diversity displayed by 'the phenomenon' may even suggest that we're not talking about A phenomenon, but multiple. 

 

And this is coming from a computer scientist who still has no definitive answerers after 60 years. 🙂 My opinion as to what's really required in last reply.

Science is missing lots of things. Its a work in progress. Its always our "current understanding". We don't know what 95% of the universe is made of, although we have a few ideas like MOND for dark matter. But science is the best tool we have currently, far better than guessing or accepting flimsy data, or unreliable witness testimony, or stuff that's that's barely evidence, or what witnesses said, or what something "appeared" to be doing, or what Vallee thinks it "might" be. If we worked on that basis we would be believing Thor, the Greek gods, the Roman gods, fairies at the bottom of the garden, all such things were real. 

Something those biased for the alien visitation, or exotic expiation say is, "well witness testimony is accepted in a court of law". 😁 Not a good argument when thousands of people are wrongly convicted, world wide, every year.

Edited June 29, 2022 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,238]

2 hours ago, Fielder said:

Actually Mylar was a later trade name. The material was so new in 1947 that there were different versions made as a trial by Dupont to see which formulations were best. Dupont did not want to print numbers to identify the formulations, so they coded the ID with symbols only they knew at the factory. Typewriters could not print those symbols. They were keeping a low profile for patent purposes.

 

Very interesting. I watched a Roswell documentary some years ago that went through all of the evidence. One piece of "evidence" was strange symbols on a strip of metal. Turned out they were exactly the same symbols used for decoration on sticky tape. Yep, simple sticky tape was confused with alien writing. 😁

[Fielder 3,680]

Decorations? Hmmm, maybe shiny things to attract the local half civilized animals for to capture and breed up for the alien food supply?