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mgh

www.avsim.ru

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Just wondering if http://www.avsim.ru is part of Avsim? It seems to be completely different apart from the name - and its file library is different.

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I think they're completely separate, but I may be wrong. I like both :-)

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Glad you asked. They have nothing to do with us. Furthermore, they stole our name. We set up shop in February, 1997. Our domain name was assigned shortly there after. Take a look at WHOIS and see what date they resgistered theirs. Significantly later. Did they ask us for permission to use our name? Nope. Did they ever even communicate their intentions? Nope. Have they ever communicated with us since saying "Oops, sorry about that"? Nope. They are thieves, pure and simple. Do we have the money to go to a Russian Court to enforce our copyright on AVSIM Online or the partial use of that name? Nope. Just remember in dealing with those characters, that they are simply thieves.

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>Glad you asked. They have nothing to do with us. Furthermore,>they stole our name. We set up shop in February, 1997. Our>domain name was assigned shortly there after. Take a look at>WHOIS and see what date they resgistered theirs. Significantly>later. Did they ask us for permission to use our name? Nope.>Did they ever even communicate their intentions? Nope. Have>they ever communicated with us since saying "Oops, sorry about>that"? Nope. They are thieves, pure and simple. Do we have the>money to go to a Russian Court to enforce our copyright on>AVSIM Online or the partial use of that name? Nope. Just>remember in dealing with those characters, that they are>simply thieves.Oh dear :-( Prehaps I should stop liking them :-(

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Oh! I should stop liking them too! There's a www.flightsim.ru as well - wonder if that's inspired by www.flightsim.com? I'll stop downloading from them then :-(I really need to stop doing this; I thought for months that FSPlanet.com was a nice, harmless site as well. I'll look more closely next time I find a site!

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And what harm does avsim.ru do to you ?I don't know much about their owner, but like here it's actually run by a bunch of volunteers. For a wide part of the very active Russian FS scene (especially the non-english speaking users) their free file library and forum gives a chance to discuss and to spread their files. Many wouldn't even know how to register here at avsim.com.Would anyone who wants to go to avsim.com type avsim.ru instead ? And then with all the cyrillic characters stay there ?Bottom line is that simmers should be happy about both. At least for me it's the hobby what counts :)Mike

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>> There's a www.flightsim.ru as well - wonder if that's inspired by www.flightsim.com? I'll stop downloading from them then And www.flightsim.no and www.flightsim.info you shouldn't use either then ? And certainly not buy something at www.flightsim.it. It's probably similar for www.avsim.*Mike

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Let me change the context a bit, and see if your position remains the same.We are freeware authors. We work for 10 years to develop a series of add-on's and to establish a name for ourselves. Suddenly, someone comes along and uses our good name and product without permission. So, using that context, do you condone theft of freeware and copyrighted product / name etc.?I am glad it is "the hobby that counts" for you. That mindset would argue that unbridled sharing of payware, repaints without credit, theft of freeware, selling of freeware, etc. would be "good for the hobby". Is that what you are saying?

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Tom I agree with you completely! Mike, there is no way that anyone can say that it is ok for someone to use someone else's name in order to get people to your website. There is no doubt that this guy knew of Avsim and their good name when he founded his website, he wanted to cash in on someone else's popularity. Cash in might not be the right word but he did want to use it for his own purpose and popularity. What do you think would happen if I opened a business in Russia called Microsoft? For some reason people seem to think that they can do whatever they want, especially if it is in this hobby......if it is freeware the OWNER of the copyright should not be able to say how their creation should be used. How can anyone support such garbage? Tom created Avsim, he basically owns Avsim and no one should be able to "profit" from that name in any way without Tom's permission. You say it is good for the hobby, well it isn't unless it is good for those that make our hobby better, people like Tom. What if one day Tom gets really mad about people "profiting" from his name and closes up shop, is that good for the hobby? Or how about if something really bad happens over at avsim.ru and someone tries to sue Tom thinking there is some connection to avsim.com, Tom will have to pay a lawyer to handle it which costs money and ends up hurting this site and hence our hobby. There are many, many ways that Avsim.com could be directly hurt from a site such as avsim.ru. I just looked at their website for the first time and I see several problems with the legality of what they are doing. The fact that they do accept money for others to advertise on the site says that they could actually be profiting in the real sense from Avsims name. I also don't like the fact that they claim a copyright on the bottom of their page, how can they copyright something in which they have in fact stolen? Well just another bunch of low life pond scum that can not do it on their own, they have to steal from those that can in order to make themselves look big. It always puzzles me to think that anyone could ever support theft but it takes all kinds. Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

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Tom,>> So, using that context, do you condone theft of freeware and copyrighted product / name etc.?No, I don't and I do not get it what is has to do with avsim.avsim.ru has a news section, a file library and a forum, that is all they have in common with avsim.com and there are roughly two dozen websites that offer the same. Besides that, it looks completely different.avsim, flightsim and so on are just logical abbreviations of the subject they are dealing with.As an example, avsim.de would be freely and legally available. If I would use that and make an FS file library and a forum, you would call me criminal ?And in the same context, would you call www.flightsim.no criminal, because www.flightsim.com was there earlier ?I get the impression, Western and Russian sites are seen with a different measure here.Mike

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Tom,I made a rather long reply to all of this yesterday and it seems to have dissappeared. Has it been deleted?

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I haven't seen it. So, I assume that it never got to the "posted" stage.

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Mike, you don't get it; don't appear to want to get it, and I am not going to waste my time trying to talk you into "getting it". If you don't understand copyrights and intellectual property now after all that has transpired in this hobby, you won't ever. So, this is my last response to you.

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Hi Tom,I couldn't agree more. Since you prefer not to answer to ANY of my questions (not even from my first answer), it makes no sense anyway. CheersMike

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Jeff, no, in your example it's of course not alright.But to call someone a theft (in my common sense that's a criminal), because he has used the same abbreviation for AViation SIMulation, is that alright ? A lot of Russian Website owners do not even speak english, so how can one automatically assume it has been made by intention ? Or any intention to harm avsim.com with that name ?It's completely different users, completely different banners or whatever (does anyone assume a Russian marriage agency would advertise here in cyrillic characters ??).Avsim.com gets mentioned on Russian sites and so Russian users come here (often with some translation help). While avsim.ru occasionally gets mentioned here and some go there to look for the Russian freeware contributions. Isn't that for the benefit of both ?And then again, please use the same measure for other Western sites too. www.flightsim.ru contains nothing but a single picture, but probably gets blamed as 'theft' too ? While www.flightsim.no has also a news section, file library, a forum , banner ads and so on. Mike

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avsim.ru in the past has assisted in the spread of pirated software, they may in fact still do so.What do you think that would do the the image of Avsim Online when people don't know they're not related?

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Tom answered everything. If you don't like the answers that doesn't mean they don't exist.You apparently have an agenda, one that seems to say that theft of corporate identity is OK as long as the identity being stolen doesn't belong to someone making a living out of it (and even then, it would according to your posts be bad only if they stole the complete style as well instead of just the name...).

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No, it's just plain Internet reality, if a domain is free, then it's offered for everyone. But no one has a chance now (it was different 5-8 years ago) to register common company names and brandnames. If someone chooses a common subject name (or common subject abbreviation), then one has to live with that problem to have it exist with different country codes. It's as simple as that.Maybe look at more simple examples like the many www.airliners.* Probably www.airliners.net is not happy about that, but that's how it is.And then look at e.g. pprune.org, the well known real pilots forums. A unique name, not much danger it gets used often. If they would have chosen www.pilotforum or www.flightforum, a chance to have it appear elsewhere is obvious.So it's partially in your hands how big the danger is to have it appear with other country codes. And someone can always register all available country codes to prevent that.Don't get me wrong, if avsim.ru really MIGHT have copied the looks (I don't remember how avsim.ru and avsim.com looked like in 2003), it isn't nice.But I VERY much doubt just using the name is criminal. Mike

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>> avsim.ru in the past has assisted in the spread of pirated software, they may in fact still do so.I haven't heard about that and I haven't noticed anything like that in their file library yet. I only do know, avsim.ru has a very strict policy, which forbids even mentioning the subject 'piracy' in any form in their forum. Everyone can read that in a pinned thread in the avsim.ru forum.Mike

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>No, it's just plain Internet reality, if a domain is free,>then it's offered for everyone. But no one has a chance now>(it was different 5-8 years ago) to register common company>names and brandnames. >Just because the Internet domain name is available doesn't mean you're imune to copyright laws. The domain system doesn't care if your name has a copyright or not as they just want the fee. avsim.ru is a copyright theif plain and simple. I don't know why you can't see that!Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.sstsim.com/images/team/JR.jpg

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Hi John,Not even by intense search on avsim.ru I can find where they have copied any content or material, they not even call themselves "AVSIM Online".But I don't speak/read Russian that perfect. So probably you can show me where :) ? Mike

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>avsim.ru in the past has assisted in the spread of pirated>software, they may in fact still do so.Pirated software? God, I used to like Avsim.ru! All my Moscow scenery comes from it! There was a great Tupolev aeroplane there!Someone said that it's obvious Avsim.ru and Avsim.com aren't related; if so then why did I start this topic? I didn't realise they weren't part of Avsim.com. In fact, about a month ago I was about to start a topic asking why the two file libraries were seperate! Call me stupid if you so desire, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. After, type in www.avism.com or www.avisim.com and you get search sites where the most popular keywords are thing like Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 or Aircraft model! In the same way, if you type in www.vatsim.com and you get a similar thing."Mikealpha", how on earth can you condone people who not only have broken copyright law but who may have aided in the spread of pirated software? Where's the logic in that? Let me give a scenario. You own a website, let's say www.mikealpha.com. It becomes really popular and gains a good reputation. I then set up www.mikealpha.net and use your good name, ignore your copyright (BTW, I checked on Wikipedia. Copyright is automatic - at least in the UK - there is no need to register it or even state that it is. It just is.)and then distribute pirate software. What would you do? Send me an e-mail saying "well done Jacob, you're enhancing the FS community." Altough I'm not sure about the piracy allegations, let's assume that they are true. Ever bought a JustFlight product? Read that excellent page on piracy that they put in every manual. Or go to www.justflight.com and click on 'Piracy'. I'm sure you'll change your mind.

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Jacob,first of all not the slightest doubt I have the same opinion about piracy, it a big pain and we all suffer from it, not only the companies. If someone claims avsim.ru has something to do with piracy, I assume he can prove it if he gets asked. Have you asked him for proof ? Search the avsim.ru file library and show me pirated software. I don't really have the time for that, but I very much doubt you will find something (as I said, I have never noticed that). And if you do, you have certainly convinced me not to use it again. But not with just such a shoot in the blue, please.Back to the original subject : I very much agree regarding your mikealpha.com example. But once again, avsim is a common sense abbreviation. I can not open a company, use a COMMON word like 'airliners', then register airliners.com and then complain if later it gets used elsewhere with different country code. And please show me any copyright law, which would protect me in that case. To my knowledge, here in Germany it doesn't exist, does it in the US ? But show me, and I'll immediately stand corrected.Mike

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"If someone claims avsim.ru has something to do with piracy, I assume he can prove it if he gets asked. Have you asked him for proof ?"You may notice that I said words to the effect of "let's ASSUME that the piracy allegations are true". I meant to imply that I haven't a clue about this subject; I'd assume that if he posted that they were pirates in a public forum he'd have a reason. I certainly wouldn't post something like that somewhere where anyone could read it - including the owners of Avsim.ru - without concrete proof. I am most certainly NOT a laywer in any manner or form, but I looked at the disclaimer-type-thing at the bottom of the Avsim.com main page and it says: All material included within AVSIM is Copyrighted and may not be reproduced or copied in any form without express written permission from AVSIM Management. Linking to articles and images are allowed under some circumstances, but links must be approved by management before links are established. Images and material holding separate copyright notices are provided exclusively to AVSIM and that copyright remains with the original authors. Images and artwork provided herein shall not be copied, reproduced or used in any other fashion without the express written permission of their respective authors. Notice the "all material" and the "may not be reproduced or copied in any form without express written permission". In my opinion "Avsim" comes under "all material". I'm sure had they e-mailed Tom he would have been most helpful. Also, I should stress that whilst I speak French, Spanish, German (badly) and Chinese (even worse) I do not speak Russian. I use www.freetranslation.com to tranlate www.avsim.ru for me and may well have missed some naunces there. One of these days I'll get around to learning Russian - the only Russian words I know are things like 'altimeter', 'battery', 'pilot', 'attitude indicator' and so on!Oh, BTW, I'm not talking about the actual domain; I refer to the name of the site. Notice I don't write the 'www.' when I refer to Avsim.ru?Here's another example (I like examples! :-) ) Why should I have to ask an airline if I want to set up a VA imitating them? After all, I'll modify the name somewhat to add maybe a 'virtual' or a 'simulated' on the end. To me that sounds the same as Avsim.com and Avsim.ru. Then again, I'm no lawyer!We've now all established our positions here. Why don't we leave it at that? Neither of us is going to convince the other; there's flaws and strong points in both our arguments; I've noticed that posts of this sort tend to degenrate into arguments, so lets stop whilst we're still civilised! (Uncivilised? Moi? Never!:-) )Really, it's up to Tom. He can take it up with Avsim.ru or not as he pleases. So I shan't be contributing to this topic any more. (How many times have I said that in other topics and then come back again?! I can't help but debate!)

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