.

In the attempt to inject a bit of clarity into the discussion...avsim.ru using the "Avsim" name is not an issue of copyright, it is an issue of trademark protection; the two are often confused. Copyright protects "original works of authorship", while trademarks protect names, phrases, logos and the like. Seehttp://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/whatis.htmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrighthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrademarkThus, while the website content of Avsim is protected by copyright, the name "Avsim" is a matter of trademark protection.Copyright applies immediately once a work is created and is international thanks to the Berne convention. The copyright need not be registered nor declared in the work, though both can be a good idea.Trademarks can be established through registration or use in the marketplace; however, if I read the Wikipedia article correctly, the trademark _has_ to be registered to gain international protection. IANAL, but it would seem to me that the name "Avsim" is, in fact, not protected in Russia.Legalities aside, I completely agree, though, that avsim.ru's usage of Avsim's name doesn't "feel right". It leads people to believe that there is a connection, and, to me, their unwillingness to communicate on the matter indicates that they did know about Avsim and chose the same name on purpose. Unfortunately, though, there doesn't seem to be anything (in the legal arena) that can be done about that.Martin

I always wondered when this would come up. The first time I heard about avsim.ru, I assumed it was Russian language affiliate of Avsim.com. A quick visit to avsim.ru cleared this up.For Thai language flight simmers, there are two main websites where they can go and visit forums and discuss things in their native language:1. Thaiflight.com (registered 18 June 1999)2. Siamavsim.com (registered 14 July 2005)The webmaster at Thaiflight.com had the foresight to register several other domain names, but he never thought to copy Avsim's name. However, about a year ago, someone else did just that. From the discussions I read on these sites, the choice to use the word "Avsim" was not made because it was an instantly recognizable flight simulation term. Instead, they realized that since most flight simmers recognized Avsim.com as the premier flight simulation website, they could gain instant credibility and pick up readers without having to build their name up (as Thaiflight.com had to).I think that the fact that Avsim.com is not "Coca-Cola", "Mattel", or "Ford" is irrelevant. Many people have put in a lot of time to make this website what it is, and it is wrong for avsim.ru to try to gain from Avsim.com's credibility.- Martin

MartinI'd like to thank you for your fine Bangkok scenery for FS2K2 that I found via your link! I'm going to Thailand with my girlfriend in November, so it's great to fly around Bangkok's virtual skies. Much appreciated!Gavin

NT

That's a clear explanation of the difference between copyright and trademarks - a difference that seems to have escaped most other posters.Trademarks are not covered by the Copyright Conventions so, unless Avsim has registed it's name in a country, then it has no more legal right to use it than anyone else in that country. Incidentally, in the UK Avsim is not a registered trademark so anyone may apply for the right to use it legally. However Avsim+ is registered in Classes 09 and 42. It's owned by a company called Isograph based in the UK.

>That's a clear explanation of the difference between>copyright and trademarks - a difference that seems to have>escaped most other posters.>>Trademarks are not covered by the Copyright Conventions so,>unless Avsim has registed it's name in a country, then it has>no more legal right to use it than anyone else in that>country. >>Incidentally, in the UK Avsim is not a registered trademark so>anyone may apply for the right to use it legally. However>Avsim+ is registered in Classes 09 and 42. It's owned by a>company called Isograph based in the UK.>Awww, darn it! I read all the way through this asking myself, are these folks all missing it?... its not about copyright its about trademark. But then I get here and ...doh! You said it! :)The reality in this situation is unless AVSIM has had AVSIM trademarked there is not anything they can do to stop the Russians. While immoral, it is not illigal for the Russians to use it.So technically speaking, Mike is correct if AVSIM is not a registered trademark (however I can not agree with the claim that AVSIM is a common abreviation so its fair game. Try to use the letters IBM and see where it gets you. Or the common word Apple - you will be sued by two companies who have been in a suit with each other for 25 years - Apple Comp, and Apple Records(the Beatles)).As Russia is a signatory of international copyright and trademark conventions, there is recourse against AVSIM.RU for AVSIM.COM, and you can probably use the American courts.That being said, I am getting to the point where I am thinking of summarily blocking all visitors from Russia, Eastern Europe and Italy (.it is spyware heaven). 50-60% of my security issues come from .it and .ru registered ips (Rice in Italy and Starnet in Russia are constant intruders with a seemingly endless supply of Zombies - my IP blacklist is huge and its mostly russia and italy). It's too bad because the Russians are excellent programmers but the few with good intent are being hurt by the overwhelming volume of those with bad.CheersShad

MikeAlpha I thought I ought to try and clear something up here a bit... people seem to be blurring domains and copyrights.You can't copyright a domain, you either own it or you don't. A domain name is a domain name and nothing else and that's an end to that. (You could copyright it if you use it as your trading name or a trademark or identity of something... but that complicates things and avsim.com don't use that as their mark, they simply use avsim).However you CAN copyright a name or trademark in this case Avsim. If someone else uses this trademark, even just the name (not the same typeface or logo or whatever) then this can be violation of copyright law. It can even be illegal to use part of an exisiting name, should this be distugished enough (for example, classic is a common word in lots of product names... but google isn't).The whole format of avsim.ru seems very similar to avsim.com and I wouldn't be suprised to see a court ruling in favour of avsim.com, on the grounds they promintley display the Avsim name, which avsim.com have grabs on. I'm not sure if they operate under avsim or avsim.ru but either would be illegal I should think, as Avsim is an invented word.On a lighter note it appears that virtual Russian aviation is the same as real-life Russian aviation... Poach some western blue-prints and try and build it with the stuff available to ya (Tu-144, Il-62 etc).

A quick Google came up with the following different uses of AVSIM:AVSIM (AVailabilty SIMulation) by Item Software of Fareham UKAVSIM by Audio Visual Systems of Chantilly VA USA AVSIM (AVionics SIMulator) by the EDO Corporation of Lancaster CA USAAVSIM+ by ARMS Reliability Engineers of Australia, and by Isograph Inc Newport Beach CA USAAVSIM by Avsim Publishing of Charlottesville VA USA.

> However you CAN copyright a name or trademark in this case Avsim. If someone else uses this trademark, even just the name (not the same typeface or logo or whatever) then this can be violation of copyright law.Hm... thought we'd cleared that up by now... ;-) You can't copyright a name, but you can register a name as a trademark. (See my previous post.)> I wouldn't be suprised to see a court ruling in favour of avsim.com, on the grounds they promintley display the Avsim name, which avsim.com have grabs on.avsim.com only "has grabs on" the Avsim name in Russia if they registered it as a trademark there... which I believe they haven't. See the discussion above and the conclusion that avsim.ru's use of the Avsim name may be immoral, but is probably not illegal.Martin

There is also an AVSIM Radar built by Northrop Grumman. None of which, including our own abbreviation of our real full name Aviation Simulation Publishing, are copyrighted. Folks who have focused on copyrights and trade marks are missing the point. It is one thing to have a similar name, abbreviation, whatever between two or more different entities that in no way could be confused with each other. It is a totally different situation when one or more entities use the same name and which could confuse the user, which in this instance, is exactly the case; and the reason the first post in this thread was posted.You can debate the niceties of copyrights and trademarks until you are blue in the face, but the point remains that these guys took our good name, appended an .ru after it, and benefitted from doing so. That to me is wrong... very very wrong. Can we do anything about it? Nope, I would not bother spending the enormous amount of money required to deal with this; in fact I wouldn't be motivated to spend one red cent. Frankly, it isn't worth it. It is a hobby web site and not my or anyone else on staff means of income. If the community can abide this kind of stuff, then fine... expect to continue to see rip off's of freeware, pirating of commercial works, and god knows what other types of behaviour of this ilk. Why? Because accepting stuff like this allows it, no encourages it, to continue.

Considering the level of economic corruption going on these days in Russsia (for example recent state-sponsored theft of 50000 Motorola cell phones) few things like that surprise me.Michael J.

>You can debate the niceties of copyrights and trademarks until>you are blue in the face, but the point remains that these>guys took our good name, appended an .ru after it, and>benefitted from doing so. That to me is wrong... very very>wrong. Can we do anything about it? Nope, I would not bother>spending the enormous amount of money required to deal with>this; in fact I wouldn't be motivated to spend one red cent.>Frankly, it isn't worth it. (SNIPPAGE)>Why?>Because accepting stuff like this allows it, no encourages it,>to continue. I agree. It is a rip-off. Huge. Unfortunately you are the only one who can stop it. I agree that it may not be financially wise to do so if there is no personal or corporate gain to be had from adopting a protectionist stance. But at the same time, I suspect that there is a lot of benifit that comes with your affiliation with the name. That has to have a lot of worth for you... it sure would for me.However, there is always a flip side to the coin. When I first went in look of addons and such for FS back in Jan 2004, I thought AVSIM was big enough to branch out to Russia. That lent a lot of credibility to the org back then. I suspect I am not the only one. There may be side benifits that are not always immediately apparent. .. besides, as the saying goes, immitation is the highest form of flattery ;).CheersShad

Tom,> You can debate the niceties of copyrights and trademarks until you are blue in the face, but the point remains that these guys took our good name, appended an .ru after it, and benefitted from doing so. That to me is wrong... very very wrong.No question about it -- and I can only begin to imagine how annoyed you are with these guys. Please don't get the intent of my post wrong -- I just wanted to point out that, to the best of my understanding, there is sadly no legal basis for taking action against avsim.ru... no matter how much money one would be willing to spend. (OTOH, I've heard that in Russia, there are other ways apart from the law to defend your interests... ;-) )I guess that, sometimes, the common-sense notion of what is right and wrong is not supported by the letter of the law...But just let me repeat, I agree with you 100 percent that avsim.ru's use of your good name is wrong...MartinEdit: Let me take this oppportunity to thank you for the great service you're doing for the community! Avsim is an incredible resource.

Does this mean i can build a hut, start selling pizza from it and call it PizzaHut (commonsense abbreviation right?) and PizzaHut has no right to be mad at me?