Jeff, no, in your example it's of course not alright.But to call someone a theft (in my common sense that's a criminal), because he has used the same abbreviation for AViation SIMulation, is that alright ? A lot of Russian Website owners do not even speak english, so how can one automatically assume it has been made by intention ? Or any intention to harm avsim.com with that name ?It's completely different users, completely different banners or whatever (does anyone assume a Russian marriage agency would advertise here in cyrillic characters ??).Avsim.com gets mentioned on Russian sites and so Russian users come here (often with some translation help). While avsim.ru occasionally gets mentioned here and some go there to look for the Russian freeware contributions. Isn't that for the benefit of both ?And then again, please use the same measure for other Western sites too. www.flightsim.ru contains nothing but a single picture, but probably gets blamed as 'theft' too ? While www.flightsim.no has also a news section, file library, a forum , banner ads and so on. Mike

avsim.ru in the past has assisted in the spread of pirated software, they may in fact still do so.What do you think that would do the the image of Avsim Online when people don't know they're not related?

Tom answered everything. If you don't like the answers that doesn't mean they don't exist.You apparently have an agenda, one that seems to say that theft of corporate identity is OK as long as the identity being stolen doesn't belong to someone making a living out of it (and even then, it would according to your posts be bad only if they stole the complete style as well instead of just the name...).

No, it's just plain Internet reality, if a domain is free, then it's offered for everyone. But no one has a chance now (it was different 5-8 years ago) to register common company names and brandnames. If someone chooses a common subject name (or common subject abbreviation), then one has to live with that problem to have it exist with different country codes. It's as simple as that.Maybe look at more simple examples like the many www.airliners.* Probably www.airliners.net is not happy about that, but that's how it is.And then look at e.g. pprune.org, the well known real pilots forums. A unique name, not much danger it gets used often. If they would have chosen www.pilotforum or www.flightforum, a chance to have it appear elsewhere is obvious.So it's partially in your hands how big the danger is to have it appear with other country codes. And someone can always register all available country codes to prevent that.Don't get me wrong, if avsim.ru really MIGHT have copied the looks (I don't remember how avsim.ru and avsim.com looked like in 2003), it isn't nice.But I VERY much doubt just using the name is criminal. Mike

>> avsim.ru in the past has assisted in the spread of pirated software, they may in fact still do so.I haven't heard about that and I haven't noticed anything like that in their file library yet. I only do know, avsim.ru has a very strict policy, which forbids even mentioning the subject 'piracy' in any form in their forum. Everyone can read that in a pinned thread in the avsim.ru forum.Mike

>No, it's just plain Internet reality, if a domain is free,>then it's offered for everyone. But no one has a chance now>(it was different 5-8 years ago) to register common company>names and brandnames. >Just because the Internet domain name is available doesn't mean you're imune to copyright laws. The domain system doesn't care if your name has a copyright or not as they just want the fee. avsim.ru is a copyright theif plain and simple. I don't know why you can't see that!Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.sstsim.com/images/team/JR.jpg

Hi John,Not even by intense search on avsim.ru I can find where they have copied any content or material, they not even call themselves "AVSIM Online".But I don't speak/read Russian that perfect. So probably you can show me where :) ? Mike

>avsim.ru in the past has assisted in the spread of pirated>software, they may in fact still do so.Pirated software? God, I used to like Avsim.ru! All my Moscow scenery comes from it! There was a great Tupolev aeroplane there!Someone said that it's obvious Avsim.ru and Avsim.com aren't related; if so then why did I start this topic? I didn't realise they weren't part of Avsim.com. In fact, about a month ago I was about to start a topic asking why the two file libraries were seperate! Call me stupid if you so desire, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. After, type in www.avism.com or www.avisim.com and you get search sites where the most popular keywords are thing like Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 or Aircraft model! In the same way, if you type in www.vatsim.com and you get a similar thing."Mikealpha", how on earth can you condone people who not only have broken copyright law but who may have aided in the spread of pirated software? Where's the logic in that? Let me give a scenario. You own a website, let's say www.mikealpha.com. It becomes really popular and gains a good reputation. I then set up www.mikealpha.net and use your good name, ignore your copyright (BTW, I checked on Wikipedia. Copyright is automatic - at least in the UK - there is no need to register it or even state that it is. It just is.)and then distribute pirate software. What would you do? Send me an e-mail saying "well done Jacob, you're enhancing the FS community." Altough I'm not sure about the piracy allegations, let's assume that they are true. Ever bought a JustFlight product? Read that excellent page on piracy that they put in every manual. Or go to www.justflight.com and click on 'Piracy'. I'm sure you'll change your mind.

Jacob,first of all not the slightest doubt I have the same opinion about piracy, it a big pain and we all suffer from it, not only the companies. If someone claims avsim.ru has something to do with piracy, I assume he can prove it if he gets asked. Have you asked him for proof ? Search the avsim.ru file library and show me pirated software. I don't really have the time for that, but I very much doubt you will find something (as I said, I have never noticed that). And if you do, you have certainly convinced me not to use it again. But not with just such a shoot in the blue, please.Back to the original subject : I very much agree regarding your mikealpha.com example. But once again, avsim is a common sense abbreviation. I can not open a company, use a COMMON word like 'airliners', then register airliners.com and then complain if later it gets used elsewhere with different country code. And please show me any copyright law, which would protect me in that case. To my knowledge, here in Germany it doesn't exist, does it in the US ? But show me, and I'll immediately stand corrected.Mike

"If someone claims avsim.ru has something to do with piracy, I assume he can prove it if he gets asked. Have you asked him for proof ?"You may notice that I said words to the effect of "let's ASSUME that the piracy allegations are true". I meant to imply that I haven't a clue about this subject; I'd assume that if he posted that they were pirates in a public forum he'd have a reason. I certainly wouldn't post something like that somewhere where anyone could read it - including the owners of Avsim.ru - without concrete proof. I am most certainly NOT a laywer in any manner or form, but I looked at the disclaimer-type-thing at the bottom of the Avsim.com main page and it says: All material included within AVSIM is Copyrighted and may not be reproduced or copied in any form without express written permission from AVSIM Management. Linking to articles and images are allowed under some circumstances, but links must be approved by management before links are established. Images and material holding separate copyright notices are provided exclusively to AVSIM and that copyright remains with the original authors. Images and artwork provided herein shall not be copied, reproduced or used in any other fashion without the express written permission of their respective authors. Notice the "all material" and the "may not be reproduced or copied in any form without express written permission". In my opinion "Avsim" comes under "all material". I'm sure had they e-mailed Tom he would have been most helpful. Also, I should stress that whilst I speak French, Spanish, German (badly) and Chinese (even worse) I do not speak Russian. I use www.freetranslation.com to tranlate www.avsim.ru for me and may well have missed some naunces there. One of these days I'll get around to learning Russian - the only Russian words I know are things like 'altimeter', 'battery', 'pilot', 'attitude indicator' and so on!Oh, BTW, I'm not talking about the actual domain; I refer to the name of the site. Notice I don't write the 'www.' when I refer to Avsim.ru?Here's another example (I like examples! :-) ) Why should I have to ask an airline if I want to set up a VA imitating them? After all, I'll modify the name somewhat to add maybe a 'virtual' or a 'simulated' on the end. To me that sounds the same as Avsim.com and Avsim.ru. Then again, I'm no lawyer!We've now all established our positions here. Why don't we leave it at that? Neither of us is going to convince the other; there's flaws and strong points in both our arguments; I've noticed that posts of this sort tend to degenrate into arguments, so lets stop whilst we're still civilised! (Uncivilised? Moi? Never!:-) )Really, it's up to Tom. He can take it up with Avsim.ru or not as he pleases. So I shan't be contributing to this topic any more. (How many times have I said that in other topics and then come back again?! I can't help but debate!)

>> Why don't we leave it at that? I wholeheartedly agree :).But don't stop downloading Russian airplanes or sceneries - in the end, you would only hurt yourself and the many Russian freeware designers. They have next to no alternative regarding uploading their material to avsim.ru.The good or bad of avsim.ru aside, who knows, maybe someone else comes up in future and offers an alternative for Russian users in their language.Mike

If someone besides the copyright owners created a target.br, mcdonalds.de, or a microsoft.ru; you know there would be #### to pay in a court battle. ;)----------------------------------------------------------------John MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private ASEL 141.2 hrs, 314 landings, 46 inst. apprs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

And who makes the copyright laws ? The US for the entire world ? Every country agreed to them ? Or each country makes laws for it's own ? What exactly say the copyright laws in the US or Russia or China or Brasil or Germany or Greenland or whereever ? I stop here too, because we won't clear that all up entirely without an experienced lawyer from that particular country dealing with Internet laws. So take my remarks as 'just a thought' :)Mike

I said I was pulling out of this conversation, but your post above Mike cannot go without a response. I strongly suggest that you do some reading up on International Copyright Law. Every country in the world (with some rare exceptions) are signatories to the Copyright Conventions that have been created and modified over the years. Yes, and that includes Germany and Russia. Those laws are not imposed on any country by another. They are negotiated, agreed to and adopted by the signatories of the Convention. Your woeful lack of understanding and your silly acclamations that show your total ignorance of the subject are embarrassing you.

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