16 hours ago, flying_carpet said:

Wow! "Ailerons gets jammed unexpectedly". I didn't expect that ... So - I should not EVEN TRY, to escape with the aerodynamic help of the rudder? If I fail, I still can use the parachute.

Hmmm, the SR22 CAPS system quite clearly says

Quote

The SR22 is equipped with a Cirrus Airplane Parachute System (CAPS) designed to bring the aircraft and its occupants to the ground in the event of a life-threatening emergency. The system is intended to saves the lives of the occupants but will most likely destroy the aircraft and may, in adverse circumstances, cause serious injury or death to the occupants. Because of this it is important to carefully read the CAPS descriptions in this section, section 3 Emergency Procedures and Section 10, Safety and consider when and how you would use the system.

and

Quote

The Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) should be activated in the event of a life-threatening emergency where CAPS deployment is determined to be safer than continued flight and landing.

So I'm gonna call source? on this:

22 hours ago, SAS443 said:

loss of control surfaces is one of the instances where pulling the chute is validated.

 

Edited January 3, 20233 yr by mSparks

~

Edited January 3, 20233 yr by mSparks
double post

@mSparks

https://www.cirrusapproach.com/caps-training/

36 minutes ago, snglecoil said:

@mSparks

https://www.cirrusapproach.com/caps-training/

https://inflightpilottraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/SR22-POH.pdf

Quote

Deployment Scenarios

This section describes possible scenarios in which the activation of the CAPS is appropriate. This list is not intended to be exclusive, but merely illustrative of the type of circumstances when CAPS deployment could be the only means of saving the occupants of the aircraft.

Mid-Air Collision

A mid-air collision likely will render the airplane unflyable by damaging the control system or primary structure. If a mid-air collision occurs, immediately evaluate if the airplane is controllable and structurally capable of continued safe flight and landing. Unless it is apparent that structural and control system damage has not occurred, activation is recommended. If you are not sure of the condition of the aircraft following a mid-air collision, CAPS activation is recommended.

Structural Failure

Structural failure may result from many situations, such as: encountering severe gusts at speeds above the airplane's structural cruising speed, inadvertent full control movements above the airplane's maneuvering speed, or exceeding the design load factor while maneuvering. If a structural failure occurs, CAPS activation is recommended.

Loss of Control

Loss of control may result from many situations, such as: a control system failure (disconnected or jammed controls); severe wake turbulence, severe turbulence causing upset, severe airframe icing, or pilot disorientation caused by vertigo or panic.

If loss of control occurs, the CAPS should be activated immediately.

• WARNING • In the event of a spin, immediate CAPS activation is mandatory.

Under no circumstances should the pilot attempt recovery from a spin other than by CAPS activation.

Landing Required in Terrain not Permitting a Safe Landing

If a forced landing on an unprepared surface is required CAPS activation is recommended unless the pilot in command concludes there is a high likelihood that a safe landing can be accomplished. If a condition requiring a forced landing occurs over rough or mountainous terrain, over water out of gliding distance to land, over widespread ground fog or at night, CAPS activation is strongly recommended. Numerous fatalities that have occurred in Cirrus aircraft accidents likely could have been avoided if pilots had made the timely decision to deploy CAPS. While attempting to glide to an airfield to perform a power off landing, the pilot must be continuously aware of altitude and ability to successfully perform the landing.

Pilot must make the determination by 2000' AGL if the landing is assured or if CAPS will be required.

Pilot Incapacitation

Pilot incapacitation may be the result of anything from a pilot's medical condition to a bird strike that injures the pilot. If incapacitation occurs and the passengers are not trained to land the aircraft, CAPS Original Issue 10-6 P/N 13772-006 Section 10 Cirrus Design Safety Information SR22 activation by the passengers is highly recommended. This scenario should be discussed with passengers prior to flight and all appropriate passengers should be briefed on CAPS operation so they could effectively deploy CAPS if required.

So very not "just pull it and hope for the best" if you have a jammed up aileron.

I'll have a quick go, it would be nice to have someone with some decent time on an SR22 to give their input:

https://www.inetefb.com/Documentation/Cirrus/AMM/pdf/27-10.pdf

Quote

DESCRIPTION This section describes that portion of the flight control system which controls the position and movement of the ailerons. Included are; aileron system rigging, control grip assembly, control yoke assembly, V-grooved guide wheel, pulleys and cables, roll trim cartridge, and 4-way trim/autopilot disconnect switch. Aileron control motion is transferred by the control yoke through a linkage to a pulley mounted on the console structure. From the pulley, control motion is passed to a single cable system and is routed through the forward pulley gang at the bottom of the center console, under the cabin floor to the rudder-aileron interconnect (Serials 0002 thru 2437), and along the fuselage longerons to kick-out pulleys which direct the cables to the wing area between the aft spar and flap cove. The cables pass through fairleads at each flap hinge location where they attach to the aileron actuation pulley. As the aileron actuation pulley rotates, the control surface is deflected via a right-angle drive arm. A cross-over cable returns to the other wing, interconnecting the left and right ailerons. Cable retainers on each set of pulleys prevent fouling. Adjustable control stops on each aileron actuation pulley limit control surface travel. The roll trim system acts as autopilot servo through the use of a captured compression spring cartridge integrated into the control system and activated by an electric motor. The spring cartridge, bolted directly to the LH aileron actuation pulley, and the electric trim motor, provide a centering force regardless of the direction of control surface deflection. When activated, the trim motor moves the spring cartridge causing the aileron actuation pulley to move the aileron to a new trimmed position. A 4-way switch, mounted on both yoke grips, controls the roll trim system.

probably the first thing to do is try and assess the reason for the lack of authority, the aircraft is still under control, there is some roll control available via the rudder, the above sounds like an autopilot failure could be responsible, whats the AP checklist? 

when it comes to it, in the OP it was only the left aileron failed, I'd be very surprised if pulling the chute at >2000 feet AGL is the safest course of action with that failure.

At the very least you want to get it back to the airport and as close to emergency services as possible. get the ATC call out declaring an emergency, etc.

Edited January 3, 20233 yr by mSparks

17 minutes ago, mSparks said:

it would be nice to have someone with some decent time on an SR22 to give their input:

I’m a Cirrus training center instructor with 500+ hours in the 20/22/22T in the past 12 months 

24 minutes ago, snglecoil said:

I’m a Cirrus training center instructor with 500+ hours in the 20/22/22T in the past 12 months 

Then given what I just read from Cirrus, I find this comment quite terrifying tbh...

On 1/2/2023 at 4:29 AM, snglecoil said:

It’s a Cirrus. The aileron and elevator are spring loaded to return to a position set by the trim. I would try aileron trim to see if it responded. If not…Pull the ‘chute. That’s what’s it there for. Not even joking. 

 

What exactly gives you concern? I’d be happy to discuss. 

29 minutes ago, snglecoil said:

What exactly gives you concern? I’d be happy to discuss. 

Didn't you say ...

3 hours ago, snglecoil said:

I’m out.

 

From another thread:

44 minutes ago, Dermot McClusky said:

....What bothers me is that a few XP fans reply to them over and over and over (and over and over...) again. Just ignore them and move on. ...

FTFY:

....What bothers me is that a few MSFS fans reply to them over and over and over (and over and over...) again. Just ignore them and move on. ...

See? If two parties do the "same" it is ok if one party does it, but not if the other one does it. Can you explain this to stand up in court?

43 minutes ago, snglecoil said:

What exactly gives you concern? I’d be happy to discuss. 

you turned

The Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) should be activated in the event of a life-threatening emergency where CAPS deployment is determined to be safer than continued flight and landing.

into

just pull the chute -

with little or no regard for the apparently significant danger associated with doing so, or any of the procedures required before doing so.

That you are content for one or more of your students reading this thread to walk away taking that advice to heart is terrifying.

very much reminiscent of

 

Edited January 3, 20233 yr by mSparks

2 minutes ago, mSparks said:

just pull the chute -

with little or no regard for the apparently significant danger associated with doing so, or any of the procedures required before doing so.

You're obviously right about following procedures properly and instructing accordingly. That said, as someone who has never flown a real aircraft, one thing I'm curious about: how many GA pilots only get a handful of hours each year? And, if so, is it reasonable to assume that w/ a rare issue like this would be almost too much for many pilots to deal with? I always think about how much training commercial or military pilots must go through to deal w/ emergencies, but then I think the random dude flying his SR22 could be just proficient enough to be flying, but really not be prepped for the big show when something bad happens.

 

7 minutes ago, flying_carpet said:

See? If two parties do the "same" it is ok if one party does it, but not if the other one does it. 

Carpet, I don't care one iota which sim people enjoy. I really like reading up on XP, MS, DCS, etc. Recently I've been overtly and obviously sarcastic and troll-y in this forum to poke the bear and see who just can't help themselves (yes, yes, immature and awful), and you were the easiest target. For that, I apologize. But please do yourself a favor and just ignore the trolls. They will go away if you (and others do). I promise to stop my little experiment; I've gotten the info I needed, anyway, beside the fact that it's a crappy thing to do. I know you have one last reply for me, but we'll agree to end it after that.

5 minutes ago, Dermot McClusky said:

how many GA pilots only get a handful of hours each year? And, if so, is it reasonable to assume that w/ a rare issue like this would be almost too much for many pilots to deal with?

This is why, imho, so many of us are such a huge fans of what Austin and team have been doing - pretty much anything and everything they can to increase aviation safety for all pilots without the need to invest 100s of thousand of $$$s in hardware, training and experience.

Be that X-Plane, X-Avion or the countless other little side projects they have pumped out over the years.

5 minutes ago, mSparks said:

This is why, imho, so many of us are such a huge fans of what Austin and team have been doing - pretty much anything and everything they can to increase aviation safety for all pilots without the need to invest 100s of thousand of $$$s in hardware, training and experience.

Be that X-Plane, X-Avion or the countless other little side projects they have pumped out over the years.

THIS!

32 minutes ago, mSparks said:

This is why, imho, so many of us are such a huge fans of what Austin and team have been doing - pretty much anything and everything they can to increase aviation safety for all pilots without the need to invest 100s of thousand of $$$s in hardware, training and experience.

Be that X-Plane, X-Avion or the countless other little side projects they have pumped out over the years.

THIS!

44 minutes ago, Dermot McClusky said:

Carpet, I don't care one iota which sim people enjoy. I really like reading up on XP, MS, DCS, etc. Recently I've been overtly and obviously sarcastic and troll-y in this forum to poke the bear and see who just can't help themselves (yes, yes, immature and awful), and you were the easiest target. For that, I apologize. But please do yourself a favor and just ignore the trolls. They will go away if you (and others do). I promise to stop my little experiment; I've gotten the info I needed, anyway, beside the fact that it's a crappy thing to do. I know you have one last reply for me, but we'll agree to end it after that.

You (and others) seem to be quite bugged by my little "failures" episodes. For that, I apologize. But please do yourself a favor and just ignore it. It is intended for inexperienced X-Plane users, so that they can learn, what else they can do with her sim, apart from e.g. flying from their hometown to vacation under normal conditions. Simple as that ... 😋.

Edited January 3, 20233 yr by flying_carpet

@mSparks, control malfunction as presented in the original video did not demonstrate any ability to recover. If the plane were to continue to roll inverted, you may quickly find yourself in a position where CAPS deployment is no longer a safe option due to attitude and/or airspeed. Cirrus has a 100% survival rate when CAPS is deployed inside airspeed and altitude envelope.

Given what I saw in the original video. I’d quickly try to establish roll control using the electric trim, and if that did not quickly indicate a positive outcome, I’d pull CAPS while I still could. 
 

Not every abnormal or emergency scenario calls for a CAPS pull. If I have a fire, I’m not floating down under the canopy while the airplane burns around me. I still may pull at minimum altitude, however, if I’m unable to find a suitable safe landing option. Even if there were no fire and that great looking emergency field I picked as a landing spot revealed unseen hazards as I approached, I may still my pull CAPS. Full flap landing reference speed is 78 knots. That’s a lot of energy to dissipate in a small, unimproved location. 
 

It took me a while to embrace Cirrus’s CAPS philosophy, but given their track record, I’ve come around and make no apologies for teaching my clients. 

23 minutes ago, snglecoil said:

you may quickly find yourself in a position where CAPS deployment is no longer a safe option due to attitude and/or airspeed.

I just tried

In the simulator, the SR22 is perfectly flyable with the left aileron locked down, put full roll to the left, about 20% left pedal to get the wings level full aileron trim to get wings keeping level at neutral.

declare an emergency

You then have plenty of time to decide exactly what to do, calling on help and advice as needed.

The POH is clear on when pulling the handle is mandatory - into a spin.

I have about 10 minutes in the SR22 now, in X-Plane, that setup doesn't seem any different than you already pointed out:

On 12/29/2022 at 11:40 PM, snglecoil said:

 In fact, one of my mentors flew a pattern a landed a C172 using only the secondary effects of rudder and elevator trim to prove to me that an elevator or aileron cable break wasn’t the end of the world. 

heck, most of the old model planes I flew as a kid didn't even have ailerons..