USA is the place. California's lithium Valley is the place.

Huge deposits. Enough for half a million cars per year. Should last for generations.

As we speak, ground is being broken on the cleanest, most efficient lithium production facilities on the planet.

 

 

Tesla refining it's own lithium in Texas, too.

 

Is it mined under those domes?  That pic has a lot of calcium in it!

EVs require 6 times the mineral content by weight than conventional vehicles.

Global demand for Nickel is expected to increase 20-fold by 2040.

Manganese demands for batteries is expected to increase 9 times over the next decade.

Demand for Lithium is expected to increase 40-fold by 2040.

Demand for Cobalt is expected to increase 20-fold by 2040.

Mining required for a single EV battery:

25,000 pounds of Lithium brine

30,000 pounds of Cobalt ore

5,000 pounds of Nickel ore

25,000 pounds of Copper ore

Adding in the aluminum and other ores, it takes about 500,000 pounds of ore to produce a single EV battery.

The amount of overall mining will increase enormously compared to the past, damaging the environment in unprecedented ways, and exploiting thousands of poor workers in many countries where these ores are mined.

Mining is a very energy intensive activity, requiring lots of energy resources.  Recycling EV batteries is very expensive and uses lots of energy, again requiring lots of energy resources.  This extra energy must be produced somehow.

A typical home EV charger uses 10-15 times as much electricity as a refrigerator. 

The additional electricity that will be needed to charge EVs is enormous.  Add to this the new requirements to only use electric ovens and electric heat, and the amount of electricity production needs to increase even further.  If all that electricity must be renewable, then the number of wind turbines and solar panels will increase enormously, requiring yet more mining, and processing, and production, and transport, and replacement, and recycling.

EVs are more expensive up front, and battery packs cost 5-15 thousand dollars and must be replaced on average after 12 years.  EV repairs are more expensive compared to conventional cars.

To be fair, the cost per mile for an EV is about 35% that of a gasoline-powered vehicle, so one would save money over time.  Moreover, using less gasoline means less drilling and refining of petroleum.

My point is that none of this will be "net zero".  EVs are not a panacea and they are not "carbon neutral".  This will all have a huge cost, both financial and as a toll on the environment and human labor. 

Lastly, I predict that once the powers that be force us all to use renewable energy, use only electric heating and cooking, and drive only EVs, our cost of living will rise substantially, making us all poorer.  I also predict that there won't be enough electricity production to meet demand in many places, so usage will be monitored and forcibly curtailed, unless you're wealthy and live in the right areas, that is.

Dave

 

23 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

it takes about 500,000 pounds of ore to produce a single EV battery.

Or possibly not:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/dec/13/instagram-posts/instagram-post-misleads-about-lithium-mining-and-t/#:~:text=content was 0.1%.-,The ores from the hard-rock mine Tesla uses contain,contains is around 165 pounds.

1 hour ago, dmwalker said:

Or possibly not:

That article itself is misleading because it only mentions Lithium and deflects away from the actual issue by focusing on minutiae like 0.1% Lithium content vs 2.1%.  Yeah, yeah, whatever.  Lithium is only part of the battery content.  What about the other metals used in the battery like steel, cobalt, nickel, aluminum, and copper?

The point is that a tremendous amount of mining will have to be done to manufacture millions of EVs.  There's just no getting around it.

I'm an advocate of hybrid vehicles. We could convert millions of existing vehicles to hybrid without having to produce new ones from scratch.  The battery packs are smaller, gasoline use is cut in half or better, and range anxiety is not an issue.  It's a perfect solution until better battery technology comes along.

I like Elon, but in the end it's all about the money.  His cars are expensive.

Like I say over and over again, we need to make this transition gradually, over several decades, not 2030, 2035, or 2040.  That's absurd and will ruin the economy and standard of living for millions of people.  This stuff with banning gas stoves and heaters is also nuts.

Things have gone too far.  This whole movement to transition away from fossil fuels, which I agree with for our long term viability, will end up sabotaging itself if the craziness doesn't stop.

Dave

The problem in the US is that the environmentalist are against mining licences for minerals. As mining has a large CO2 footprint.

12 hours ago, dave2013 said:

EVs require 6 times the mineral content by weight than conventional 

 

 

 I didn't intend this to be another EV good/bad thread, just about the great news that there are huge deposits of lithium in California that's to be extracted in an environmentally friendly way. So if we could keep this friendly, and give the moderators an easy time, that would be good. 👍 

 

Re your "6 times the mineral content". I've not checked the validity of that and you haven't provided a link. That would be minus the materials used to make the ICE car they replace of course.

 

The article below is entitled.

Electric cars use way less raw materials than ICE cars.

https://insideevs.com/news/491330/electric-cars-less-raw-materials-ice-vehicles/

So essentially, the new research disputes everything you have claimed, Dave. Oil is a raw material too. 

Nobody said BEV's are carbon neutral. Obviously they aren't. But they are orders of magnitude better than an ICE car.

 

"A typical home EV charger uses 10-15 times as much electricity as a refrigerator." 

Of course it does, a modern refrigerator uses just 100 watts. 😃

 

"Demand for Lithium is expected to increase 40-fold by 2040"

I haven't checked your figures, but California has the equivalent of 50% of the entire worlds supply. 😲 Enough lithium for half a million cars for many generations. There is no actual shortage of lithium per se. Its a question of economic and political support for development. There's no shortage of the element itself, its pace of extraction that's slow. The great work they are doing in California is good news.

 

"The amount of overall mining will increase enormously compared to the past"

Well I'm not sure that's true, but you would have to deduct from that all of the drilling for oil for your ice car, refining oil, transportation of oil, mining for materials for your ICE car, and constant requirement for petrol throughout the entire life of the ICE car that is replaced by an EV. 

 

"EVs are more expensive up front, and battery packs cost 5-15 thousand dollars and must be replaced on average after 12 years.  EV repairs are more expensive compared to conventional cars."

Average price of a car in the US is $50K. Tesla Model 3 is now 40K. And of course there are cheaper electric cars. But I get your point. Yes an EV is  expensive upfront, but the savings throughout its lifetime render it much cheaper in the long run. And of course, EV's are getting cheaper all the time as battery prices drop. The new LFP batteries are cheaper, safer, last for double the lifespan of a lithium ion ternary battery and in mnay cars now. No, batteries don't need to be replaced every 12 years, 100,000 to 200,000 miles is typical. They then are used as "second life" batteries. Warranty is 10 years, but they last far longer than that. As for repairs on EV cars, there aren't usually any. On a service you just top up the washer bottle. Rarely do they break down compared with the thousands of moving parts in an ice car. 

 

"The additional electricity that will be needed to charge EVs is enormous."

We've talked about this a number of times before. No need to repeat everything said. All I can say is that in the UK and many other countries its not an issue. I can't comment on the US as I know nothing about your nations electricity requirements.

 

Quote

 

Does the electricity grid have enough capacity for charging EVs?

The most demand for electricity in recent years in the UK was for 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency.

Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we believe demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002 and this is well within the range of manageable load fluctuation.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions

 

 

Quote

The new study released on Sunday outlines that just 30 kilograms of raw materials are lost in the production and use of an electric car after 70% is recycled at end-of-life, compared with 17,000 litres of fuel burnt by ICE cars

https://thedriven.io/2021/03/02/electric-cars-require-far-less-raw-materials-than-petrol-diesel-cars/

 

 

"My point is that none of this will be "net zero".  EVs are not a panacea and they are not "carbon neutral". 

I agree! Nobody ever claimed they are net zero or carbon neutral Dave, they are just better than an ICE car. Nobody claimed a panacea either. 

 

 

We should also remember that the pace of battery development is rapid. We will have sodium ion batteries in cars this year, that use no lithium, no cobalt etc. 

https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/sodium-ion-jac-group-hina-battery-china/

 

 

Edited May 10, 20233 yr by martin-w

The problem is 2thrds of the world's population will not be forced to use EV`s, and some manufacturers are already looking at building new factories overseas to keep ICE vehicles for that growing market. Both GM and FORD are losing money on EV`s at the moment.

2 hours ago, G-RFRY said:

The problem in the US is that the environmentalist are against mining licences for minerals. As mining has a large CO2 footprint.

 

Not an issue for the California lithium. Its in the Salton Sea, a long neglected part of California. The mining is going to be powered by the vast geothermal  field beneath. 

 

As I say, the pace of development is incredibly rapid. Its not just sodium ion batters that are here this year, in some cars now, but CATL have just revealed their astonishing "Condensed Battery".

Double the energy density of conventional lithium ion batteries. 

 

Quote

China's Contemporary Amperex Technology (CATL) used the Auto Shanghai motor show to announce that it has developed a condensed battery. The battery has an energy density of up to 500 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh/kg) compared to 200 to 300 Wh/kg for conventional lithium-ion batteries. The company claims the new battery’s energy density could be high enough to allow the development of electrified passenger aircraft.

 

500 watt-hours per kilogram is quite astounding. they are focusing on electric aviation, but say they will have it in a car later this year. Something like the Eviation Alice would have close to a 1000 mile range. they are currently partnering with several aviation companies.

Now I know what you are thinking, just talk, it will probably never materialize, but the point is CATL are the biggest battery manufacturer on the planet, with an excellent reputation, they aren't known for empty promises. What they claim is usually manifest. 

 

13 hours ago, dave2013 said:

Like I say over and over again, we need to make this transition gradually, over several decades, not 2030, 2035, or 2040.

 

Scientists tell us we don't have that luxury, but I know you don't believe scientists, so not much point in me debating that with you.

Lots of technologies will impact the adoption of EV's. V2G for example is a big one, that has to power to transform our energy system. That great big battery on your drive can be used to power your home, feed energy back to the grid etc. And the owner is likely to have charged that battery on cheap rate electricity at night. Or it was free, thanks to the solar panels on their roof.

https://www.virta.global/vehicle-to-grid-v2g

Then we have the smart grid of course, which is way more efficient. 

 

 

This has now totally turned into another EV good/bad topic!  You are beating that dead horse more and more! 🔒