6 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

Yeah... That's not IFR flying, at least not on a precision approach, and even in the sim probably builds negative habit patterns for if you ever do this in real life.

How about, instead of pretending this isn't a problem, we just focus on figuring out which airplanes it affects and what the solution might be?  What would be the point of acting like it isn't a problem?  For whichever planes it affects, it's a very significant bug indeed.

And touching on the second half of runway is? LOL Ok so what is your solution? I know some developers may offset to correct this issue but other that that MSFS won't count for 6 approaches and 1 hold anyway. Right?

P.S. I had both  gyro/ HSI loss and full electrical failure both in IMC (ironically both time during ILS approach) Since I'm still talking to you here obviously I neither picked up negative habits from the sims over the years nor bad behaviors. LOL Life is life, entertainment is entertainment 🙂

35 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

And touching on the second half of runway is? LOL Ok so what is your solution? I know some developers may offset to correct this issue but other that that MSFS won't count for 6 approaches and 1 hold anyway. Right?

P.S. I had both  gyro/ HSI loss and full electrical failure both in IMC (ironically both time during ILS approach) Since I'm still talking to you here obviously I neither picked up negative habits from the sims over the years nor bad behaviors. LOL Life is life, entertainment is entertainment 🙂

Touching the second half of the runway is what?  Not following you here, sorry.

Your standard GA IFR failure scenarios don't really apply to what I'm saying here, unless you'd practiced handling them intentionally wrong dozens of times in a sim, before having to do them correctly in an airplane.  I'm guessing you hadn't.

Even chair flying can build habit patterns (good or bad, depending on attention to detail) which is why it's such a fundamental part of procedural training in transport aircraft.  Sure, this is a video game, but when aspects of it are designed to resemble the reality of operating an aircraft, the human brain is absolutely going to see habit pattern effects - not "might", not "for some people", but absolutely *will*.  It's just basic psychology, our stock in trade in the 121 training world.

Anyway, fun little human factors deviation but really not relevant to the OP.  My only point in my first reply to you was: for whatever planes in the software this affects, it is a significant bug.  Why just pretend it's not?

33 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

Touching the second half of the runway is what?  Not following you here, sorry.

Your standard GA IFR failure scenarios don't really apply to what I'm saying here, unless you'd practiced handling them intentionally wrong dozens of times in a sim, before having to do them correctly in an airplane.  I'm guessing you hadn't.

Even chair flying can build habit patterns (good or bad, depending on attention to detail) which is why it's such a fundamental part of procedural training in transport aircraft.  Sure, this is a video game, but when aspects of it are designed to resemble the reality of operating an aircraft, the human brain is absolutely going to see habit pattern effects - not "might", not "for some people", but absolutely *will*.  It's just basic psychology, our stock in trade in the 121 training world.

Anyway, fun little human factors deviation but really not relevant to the OP.  My only point in my first reply to you was: for whatever planes in the software this affects, it is a significant bug.  Why just pretend it's not?

If you follow default  Asobo GS you want be hitting correct touch down zone. Again what Asobo bug has to do 121 training world? What solution you can offer right now in sim now? I' merely suggesting work around and you mixing real world psychology and training 

I've been using sims for over 30 years! Way before I actually leant to fly. So I'm testament of so called "bad habbits" that I obtained prior my RW training. Entertaining world  doesn't apply to RW training. Whatever I thought I did right in the sim was actually wrong. But it was not a big deal to start from  ground zero just like average Joe who just walked in to flight school. Sim is only useful  when one actually know how to use it.

Now I'm not a "golden seal" but been flight instructing long enough to know the obvious you are trying to pitch here. Just don't mix RW training with entertaining please. 

 

1 hour ago, sd_flyer said:

If you follow default  Asobo GS you want be hitting correct touch down zone. Again what Asobo bug has to do 121 training world? What solution you can offer right now in sim now? I' merely suggesting work around and you mixing real world psychology and training 

I've been using sims for over 30 years! Way before I actually leant to fly. So I'm testament of so called "bad habbits" that I obtained prior my RW training. Entertaining world  doesn't apply to RW training. Whatever I thought I did right in the sim was actually wrong. But it was not a big deal to start from  ground zero just like average Joe who just walked in to flight school. Sim is only useful  when one actually know how to use it.

Now I'm not a "golden seal" but been flight instructing long enough to know the obvious you are trying to pitch here. Just don't mix RW training with entertaining please. 

 

I mean, the initial denial of the issue and then saying you'd just whack off the autopilot and try to augur it in has already convinced me that I wouldn't get in an airplane with you anyways, so I think the RW/sim discussion is pretty worthless at this point.

What solution can Stearmandriver offer if this is a sim bug? None, but we can put in enough tickets that Asobo might look at it.

The solution isn't to just walk into the ocean and let the waves take you on every little bug... Asobo have fixed a lot of issues in this sim and really seeing you and Bob find it necessary to pop off and say it's not an issue because you can just fly it visually is... ridiculous. This is just a bug. Feedback systems exist so as to fix bugs.

7 minutes ago, mspencer said:

I mean, the initial denial of the issue and then saying you'd just whack off the autopilot and try to augur it in has already convinced me that I wouldn't get in an airplane with you anyways, so I think the RW/sim discussion is pretty worthless at this point.

 

Frankly my bet is on MSFS2024. Perhaps Asobo at some point will fix it. But whatever bug we found now hopefully show up on the drawing board on next sim

Would it be possible for someone to re-post this on the official forums? I am not a member. I wouldn't mind if you posted word-for-word or made your own edits, whatever works.

10 minutes ago, mspencer said:

 

The solution isn't to just walk into the ocean and let the waves take you on every little bug... Asobo have fixed a lot of issues in this sim and really seeing you and Bob find it necessary to pop off and say it's not an issue because you can just fly it visually is... ridiculous. This is just a bug. Feedback systems exist so as to fix bugs.

What nerve you have saying that i just "popped off" because I said I like to hand fly an approach.I fly the PMDG, the Fenix, The Comanche, and several other aircraft and do Rnav approaches all the time, and I have had zero problems with them not guiding me to the runway. When I hand fly the aircraft, I am still looking at the guidance that the instruments are showing me, I just like to do it by hand rather than letting the auto pilot fly everything. If the particular aircraft that the OP is having a problem with, is giving him problems with the Rnav approaches, maybe it is a flying POS, who knows. I fly pretty good payware aircraft, and don't see these problems with Rnav. If this is an Asobo bug, how come I don't see this bug with the 5 or 6 aircraft I fly all the time? 

5 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

I am still looking at the guidance that the instruments are showing me, I just like to do it by hand rather than letting the auto pilot fly everything.

That's a very big part of the problem: because of this issue, the vertical guidance in the ATR is unreliable. I've decided my first flight tomorrow will be the RNAV 10 approach to TTPP in the G1000 172. Will report back.

 

Edited August 15, 20232 yr by mryan75

1 minute ago, mryan75 said:

That's a very big part of the problem: because of this issue, the vertical guidance in the ATR is unreliable. I've decided my first flight tomorrow will be the RNAV 10 approach to TTPP in the G1000 172. Will report back.

 

Well then do what I do with some of the garbage aircraft I have even bought in the past, I put them on blocks in the hangar, and they remain there. Now wasting my time trying to fix things that are broken. 

3 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

Well then do what I do with some of the garbage aircraft I have even bought in the past, I put them on blocks in the hangar, and they remain there. Now wasting my time trying to fix things that are broken. 

Other than this issue, it's a fantastic airplane. I absolutely love flying it, so I'm hoping to confirm the issue and get Asobo's attention to fix it (or the aircraft developer, whomever), hence the post.

6 minutes ago, mryan75 said:

Other than this issue, it's a fantastic airplane. I absolutely love flying it, so I'm hoping to confirm the issue and get Asobo's attention to fix it (or the aircraft developer, whomever), hence the post.

I just can't imagine a $20 aircraft would be that good, but that's just me. 

This is not a navdata issue, but potentially an issue with the guidance computation in this particular aircraft.

If you fly any of the stock aircraft with updated avionics (G1000 NXi, GNS430W/530W, G3000/5000, CJ4, 747-8i, 787-10), they will each have you crossing the threshold at 50ft, which is the regulation standard for RNAV vertical guidance, using the navdata installed in the sim. This will put you basically right on the 1000 foot markers.

10 hours ago, sd_flyer said:

If you follow default  Asobo GS you want be hitting correct touch down zone. Again what Asobo bug has to do 121 training world? What solution you can offer right now in sim now? I' merely suggesting work around and you mixing real world psychology and training 

I've been using sims for over 30 years! Way before I actually leant to fly. So I'm testament of so called "bad habbits" that I obtained prior my RW training. Entertaining world  doesn't apply to RW training. Whatever I thought I did right in the sim was actually wrong. But it was not a big deal to start from  ground zero just like average Joe who just walked in to flight school. Sim is only useful  when one actually know how to use it.

Now I'm not a "golden seal" but been flight instructing long enough to know the obvious you are trying to pitch here. Just don't mix RW training with entertaining please. 

 

Not to beat this to death, but since you keep trying to make things I said mean things they don't, I'll offer some clarification.

First, if you follow the default Asobo GS you will indeed hit the touchdown zone, as the ILS GS is attached to the runway scenery object.  But we're talking about glidepaths.  Yes, in most aircraft using default navdata, GPs are computed correctly as well.

I think it's become clear this isn't an Asobo bug, but whoever's it is doesn't have anything to do with the 121 training world.  I merely pointed out that our instructional techniques in 121 are rooted in a much deeper dive into psychology than the FOI used in the GA world, when I was talking about habit patterns.  Your opinion isn't really relevant when weighed against decades of solid science, and the human brain works the way it works, that's all.  Not really debatable.

As far as what solution can be offered in the sim right now, well that's the point, isn't it?  Once we figure out where the problem lies, there very well may be solutions that can be implemented by the end user.  For instance, there are airports in SE Alaska for which I adjust the runway waypoint elevations in the PMDG navdata after an update, after I re-insert my company's proprietary RNP procedures.  This is a solution to the problem of the PMDG TCH being incorrect at certain airports with larger elevation changes, because the older navdata that PMDG uses assumes all airports are flat (as they were in FSX.). Kodiak is a good example, and this is an easy fix.

It's looking more like this is specific to one airplane, which makes it seem less a navdata issue and more an issue with how this plane calculates a vertical path.  When that's narrowed down, it may be something the dev has to fix, but it may also be something that someone in the community can fix, and does before the dev.  Flight sim history is littered with these kinds of issues / fixes.

So, blowing it off as not being a problem because a person can just fly visually, and whatever problem might exist can't be fixed anyway... Well, doesn't make much sense is all.

1 hour ago, Stearmandriver said:

 

As far as what solution can be offered in the sim right now, well that's the point, isn't it?  Once we figure out where the problem lies, there very well may be solutions that can be implemented by the end user.  For instance, there are airports in SE Alaska for which I adjust the runway waypoint elevations in the PMDG navdata after an update, after I re-insert my company's proprietary RNP procedures.  This is a solution to the problem of the PMDG TCH being incorrect at certain airports with larger elevation changes, because the older navdata that PMDG uses assumes all airports are flat (as they were in FSX.). Kodiak is a good example, and this is an easy fix.

 

How do you do this? Is there a way to edit  navdata PMDG? I honestly wasn't aware!

12 hours ago, MattNischan said:

This is not a navdata issue, but potentially an issue with the guidance computation in this particular aircraft.

If you fly any of the stock aircraft with updated avionics (G1000 NXi, GNS430W/530W, G3000/5000, CJ4, 747-8i, 787-10), they will each have you crossing the threshold at 50ft, which is the regulation standard for RNAV vertical guidance, using the navdata installed in the sim. This will put you basically right on the 1000 foot markers.

It's truly a bizarre problem. What seems to have happened is that for whatever reason, the ARP is treated as the runway threshold. I'm going to do two things today: fly the RNAV10 at TTPP with the G1000 172, and then fly the indicated glideslope for the same approach in the ATR. I think I've found a way to contact Hans Hartmann if I can confirm the issue.