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Guest Id Rather Be Flying

If this doesn't scream XBox...

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I had a look at the developer openings on the ACES team and noticed this desired qualification for the UI developer:- "Developing new user interface features on top of a proprietary version of the Xbox User Interface library (XUI) for the Windows platform."Very interesting and perhaps portentious of things to come for FS11.source: http://members.microsoft.com/careers/searc...tCol=DatePosted

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I was interested in applying as I have quite a bit I could offer the FS franchise with over 30 years programming disciplines as well as real world pilot/rc pilot/enthusiast since franchise inception with BAO. HOWEVER I was quickly disenchanted to apply after seeing that bullet highlight.

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What's wrong with XBox?I love using an XBox controller with FSX. As long as they maintain accurate flight models, I don't care what's running it. In fact, running it on XBox could be the best thing for the FS franchise as it is a stable platform, they know what they are developing to and won't have to dumb it down for people who can't afford the hardware.I would think this would be a dream development job? You'd be free to work on the content with a known set of constraints and wouldn't have to worry about the stupid stuff. I'd hate having to program for PC's.Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)N15802 KASH '73 Piper Cherokee Challenger 180

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No, thats XUI for the PC.Much of the game tech comes from XBox lately. XUI, XBox Controller on the PC, XAudio/XAudio2 audio APIs, XACT audio authoring tool, G4W Live is basically XBox Live for the PC.

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Yep, and already being used by FSX, for things like the KneeBoard, the in-game chat window, ATC, etc.

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I'd like to ask something: these offers are still for a job located at Redmond or are you opening up tele-commuting/work in the ACE team?

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I can't see anything interesting in a port to XBox and, as I stated numerous times earlier, I simply cannot understand people that would be excited about ANY console port. I may be repeating myself, but a FS{whatever} port to any console will NEVER EVER happen, because of the following reasons:- Lack of peripheralsYou cannot just plug in a CH Products FlightSim Yoke and pedals on an XBox without drivers. An XBox is NOT a PC and therefore very limited when it comes to 3rd party hardware. Thus: No joystick, no yoke, no pedals, no TrackIR.- Lack of add-onsThere will be no addons for XBox, because you cannot transfer files from services, like Flight1 to purchase and install add-ons. Thus: No Ultimate Terrain, no add-on planes, no 3rd party airports, scenery, flight planners. Current games that have a download capability have that feature built into the application/game and just cannot see that MS will offer (and most importantly: maintain) a store front.- Lack of multi-monitor setupsNot supported, at least not in the current form- End of home cockpitsNot supported (SimKits, etc.)- Lack of OSNo window switching, no file editing: Thus: no editing of ie. aircraft files, gauges, liveries, no 3rd party add-ons- Lack of knowledge/SDKXBox is a proprietary SDK and I think that the SDK is not free. Additionally not a lot of people are familiar or have the knowledge to code on that platform. This would mark the end of freeware and seriously limit any 3rd party add-ons.- Conflict of interestFS is a SIMULATION FRAMEWORK that thrives upon developments of 3rd parties and a near limitless expandability. XBox is a GAMING platform. How many serious and complex simulators are there for XBox? None.Pat

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Well, those are some good points for today's environment, however, moving forward, I'll bet you'll see just about all of them go away.Also, the way you are putting your points, you are acting as if - if ACES were to develop a version for XBox, they'd stop doing a version for the PC. It was my assumption that, if they were doing a port for XBox, that they would continue making the PC version.The original point of the initial post was that it sounded like ACES was looking for programmers for an eventual XBox port. Somebody said they wouldn't want to do that, and I pointed out that, well, it sounds like a dream job to me if I were to join the ACES team. As I noted, it seems to me that FS could be much more stable on the XBox platform and it would be "easier" to program for, as it might be possible that more time could be spent making it work better and less time would be spent worrying about compatability issues. Of course then we are talking about a whole different development tree (with some commonality) and they would end up being different products I imagine.Secondly, it's not as if Microsoft is the only company writing software for the XBox. While it might not necessarily be Halo in terms of popularity, FS is one of the most popular gaming titles for the PC, ever. There must be tons of XBox development teams out there. Given the popularity of FS, I'd bet you could find one or three companies to sign on to make addons, and I'd bet they'd be popular. Look at all the Guitar hero stuff and ripoffs available today, and that only came out last year. And that's also a good example of a new controller for XBox.Of course, you could argue, if you're going to spend time creating an XBox port, shouldn't they instead develop a 64 bit port. MY thought on this would be that, as a business decision, an XBox port would be the way to go. I'd bet there are more people out there with XBox's than people who would buy a 64 bit version of FS (today). Not to mention the fact that XBox is 32 bit so that port might be easier (?).Third, if there were an XBox port, I'm sure some enterprising person(s) out there would figure out how to port a CH Products USB port controller into an XBox. It can't be impossible. And eventually there'd be real ones. Not to mention the fact that Microsoft might be able to talk CH Products or Saitek to create ports anyway to launch at the same time.Again, I'm not saying that XBox should supplant the PC version. I just thought there may be a business case for it, and I thought working on it might be a nice job and a good way to become a part of the ACES team.ThomasP.S. Conflict of interest? That's stretchin' it. It's a game, period. Yes, it's a nice simulation, too. Ultimately, it's a game. Heck, real flying is a game, lol. I certainly find it lots of fun.Which brings to my ADHD mind a question, what's Blazing Angels all about? Any good (as a simulator)? (I don't do games that don't seem real)I do agree that the freeware side of the community might not be able to make the jump. But I don't know and I don't think anyone can necessarily answer that either way, not even the ACES team as they don't control the lawyers or any of that stuff. I'm sure it would be part of the negotiations deciding whether or not to go forward with it.[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)N15802 KASH '73 Piper Cherokee Challenger 180

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>Well, those are some good points for today's environment,>however, moving forward, I'll bet you'll see just about all of>them go away.Maybe, but certainly not within a few years.>The original point of the initial post was that it sounded>like ACES was looking for programmers for an eventual XBox>port. Somebody said they wouldn't want to do that, and I>pointed out that, well, it sounds like a dream job to me if I>were to join the ACES team. As I noted, it seems to me that>FS could be much more stable on the XBox platform and it would>be "easier" to program for, as it might be possible that more>time could be spent making it work better and less time would>be spent worrying about compatability issues. Of course then>we are talking about a whole different development tree (with>some commonality) and they would end up being different>products I imagine.Of course, XBox is more stable, because the software is locked and optimized for the hardware. However, you will NEVER have the flexibility compared to a PC, because an XBox is not a PC and does not run any operating system. I could make a similar proposal and say "FSX on a Tivo would be so cool". Sure, it would be great, but technically speaking VERY difficult and highly unlikely.>Of course, you could argue, if you're going to spend time>creating an XBox port, shouldn't they instead develop a 64 bit>port. MY thought on this would be that, as a business>decision, an XBox port would be the way to go. I'd bet there>are more people out there with XBox's than people who would>buy a 64 bit version of FS (today). Not to mention the fact>that XBox is 32 bit so that port might be easier (?).An XBox port would kill the FS series for the reasons that I pointed out in my previous thread. You make it all sound so simple, but trust me, it is not. Ever coded any application or a driver? I did. Sure, let's just make a 64-Bit version - right now. In fact, it'll take years to move entirely to 64-Bit and outside of the Unix/Linux and server environment, there are currently only a few very native 64-Bit applications out there.>Third, if there were an XBox port, I'm sure some enterprising>person(s) out there would figure out how to port a CH Products>USB port controller into an XBox. It can't be impossible. >And eventually there'd be real ones. Not to mention the fact>that Microsoft might be able to talk CH Products or Saitek to>create ports anyway to launch at the same time.When it comes to drivers, you just don't "write a driver" for the XBox. A lot of peripherals are either embedded in the code and can be used only for Guitar Hero (for example) or would need to be reverse engineered or low-level coded. If there was such a huge market, then you would/should be able to plug in and use your current Saitek joystick into your XBox right now. But you can't.>P.S. Conflict of interest? That's stretchin' it. It's a>game, period. Yes, it's a nice simulation, too. Ultimately,>it's a game. Heck, real flying is a game, lol. I certainly>find it lots of fun.A lot of flight schools are using FS as a training tool, so it can hardly to be considered just a game for some. Now just imagine how silly it would be to "play" FS with an XBox controller in a flight school as preparation for real life flight training... ;)I am not saying that it would not be a cool idea to have a dedicated hardware FS "appliance", but it will probably never happen and most certainly NOT on the XBox, because the technical hurdles make it impractical, if not impossible.Pat

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Spending dev resources to making an XBox version and a PC version may not be the best course of action.In a related vein, the day FS becomes all-console, is the date of the death of a sim.This is getting dangerously close to one of those old "Console vs. PC" threads, and I will not be a part of any of that mess. ;)I can make it short 'n to the point: I will oppose with every fiber of my being, for 1,000 years and all the stars in the universe, any attempt to make FS a console-only app. How's that? :)RhettAMD 3700+ (@2585 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2gb Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8 (1T), WD 150 gig 10000rpm Raptor, WD 250gig 7200rpm SATA2, Seagate 120gb 5400 rpm external HD, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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Pat, again be accurate when you post criticisms. Having opinions is fine, but you are acting like your opinions are fact and they are not.XBox and XBox360 in point of fact do have an OS. http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS3988467635.htmlIt is possible to add peripherals to XBox360, you just need to work with the XBox team to do so. It is a console, after all. And there is already a flight controllerhttp://www.arcade-renaissance.com/2007/09/...eripherals.htmlAs to the difficulty factor in a port - unless you know our codebase I believe you cannot make an authoritative statement here. I will say that practical considerations like reduced memory available mean anything we did decide to do would not be FS as you know it today. Plus, an XBox port would be an additional title in Aces portfolio ( to go along with FS PC, TS PC, and ESP PC ) and in no way would decrease the commitment to the PC as a gaming platform so I dont believe it automagically follows that would kill the FS Series; that is speculation at best.

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Where did I post any "criticism"? I think I posted an accurate representation of what is technologically possible and what is not. I am not an XBox developer, but I do how to code from Assembly, C++ to Python and can differentiate of what's possible/feasible and what is not, so I don't think that I am talking nonsense here.I think that you would agree with me that any potential XBox port would not be as expandable with 3rd party hardware and software compared to a PC version (which is the topic here, no?). Technologically possible, but it won't happen.FSXBox would be at best an "Acceleration"-type sim with fighters and races comparable to the stripped-down "Sims" Xbox port. Why are there no complex strategy games or simulations for a console (Civilization, Rome, WoW, Silent Hunter, Tycoon Series, etc.)? Because it's not practical, there are not enough controls, because you would need a least a keyboard and a stable pointing device, because they just can not be played without one or they will naturally take away complexity and turn a flight sim into an arcade game.Pat

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Wait a second - who EVER said it would be an XBox only product?I only said that if they were to port it to XBox, I thought it would be a fun programming job to have as I thought the hardware hurdles would be easier.I guess I did say that the XBox version would be a different codepath than the PC version, and would probably be a very different product, kind of like TS is different from FS, but different than that.I also, not owning an XBox and therefore not realizing it has limited memory capacity, thought that an XBox port would be easier than a 64 bit port since the XBox is 32 bit itself. But I'm clueless as far as that goes.BTW, when I say XBox, I mean XBox 360.I understand there are people who wouldn't use FS on an XBox, that's fine. But I don't see any problem with having an XBox version, too.And you'll never be able to convince me that if it were needed, that a new controller couldn't be created. Granted, it would probably take about a year if they haven't already started on it, but FS on XBox wouldn't be out before that anyway.Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)N15802 KASH '73 Piper Cherokee Challenger 180

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QUOTE: Because it's not practical, there are not enough controls, because you would need a least a keyboard and a stable pointing device, because they just can not be played without one or they will naturally take away complexity and turn a flight sim into an arcade game. END QUOTEThis is not a avaition releated game, but the new Tony Hawk that is coming out for xbox 360 is a break through in new controls and key combos. it almost has an infanite amt of key combinations with all of the tricks and different styles of the same base trick. Though still it isnt up the the amt of combinations and assignments that fs has, but still it has more than the average game. Plus with every new game that replaces a previous game they get more and more complex, the ACE Combat series is getting pretty complex and the graphics are getting really good. Also to go with this the new Call of Duty Modern Warfare game is really huge, it is a huge developers game to get the physics right of all of the new weapons with them being so complex now adays.IF aces were to get to xbox there are always gonna be pluses and minuses about the decision. Personaly i dont think it will happen until the next xbox (which is probably already being developed).But for fs to get better interms of performace, and visually, they are going to have to have competition in this genra of gaming. with out it, we will be almost forced to continue to buy a microsoft flight simulator, why, because there is nothing else out there to do the job. Again personally i dont see another company entering the fs industry for quite a while. The only competitior that i see doing it is google, they have somthing put into almost everything computer related.all just my opinion

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Well for such an accomplished programmer you certainly don't seem to know much about hardware, or the direction in which entertainment is going.The XBox 360 is a very capable machine - I don't see why one shouldn't release a version of a flightsim for it - it'll certainly solve 99.9% of the issues people are whinging about.Humanity never ceases to amaze me.

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>Well for such an accomplished programmer you certainly don't>seem to know much about hardware, or the direction in which>entertainment is going.Enjoy what you wish and I shall do the same.>>The XBox 360 is a very capable machine - I don't see why one>shouldn't release a version of a flightsim for it - it'll>certainly solve 99.9% of the issues people are whinging>about.>Enjoy your Living Room.>Humanity never ceases to amaze me.You got that one right!

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That's what people said about PC gaming in general before the introduction of the XBox and more recently the XBox 360. I have yet to see a PC game that compares in terms of visuals and fluidity that I've seen on the XBox, and Pat's assertion that the XBox cannot run complex games is utter BS.Oh and Crysis has come about almost 2 years after the intro of the XBox 360, so you can't really use that as a basis for comparison, and PC games are still going strong as is evidenced by Crysis.Porting FS to a console will not be the death of the sim. I wish people would stop talking nonsense it's irritating at best.James

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I have explained in a hopefully understandable level of detail why the XBox hardware is not suited for a flight simulator.As for the direction in which entertainment is going, then I think I can take any console out of the equation, because there is not a single title for any console that offers intelligent or advanced gaming, unless you're happy with first person shooters, arcade or family games. Sure, some titles are fun, but you just won't find a strategy or simulation game or anything modular, expandable or downloadable for a console title, because FS thrives on the added content and the controls. It is more a "flight simulation framework" for me that I can expand and setup to suit my needs.If you're happy to fly FSX with a 360 controller than that's fine, but I need my controls, my TrackIR and all the other hardware and software gadgets to help me simulate realism and anything less than that would be be two steps in the opposite direction.Pat

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To Phil's point, you described why it is YOUR OPINION that the XBox hardware is not suited for a flight simulator. In my opinion, you did not convince me in any way that it is not possible, or that ACES should not consider it.BTW, I've seen plenty of downloads, user created upgrades, patches and so on for PS2 games. I imagine the same would be true for XBox if I looked.Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)N15802 KASH '73 Piper Cherokee Challenger 180

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Crysis is NOT a flight simulator, but one of the many (interchangable) first-person shooters with nice graphics, but a very limited game coverage. It cannot be compared with a flight sim. Stop comparing apples with oranges.The XBox has good and very capable hardware and if everyone would have a triple core 3.2GHz and a 500Mhz GPU than we probably have zero performance problems with FSX and would experience a similar fluidity - and all arguments for an XBox port would be void.Talking nonsense is someone suggesting that a port to XBox would benefit anyone in any way. Good grief. The only benefit would be performance and convenience, but there are at least a dozen arguments that would make the FS series LESS than what we currently have.Pat

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Ok, give me arguments of why FS should be ported to a console and where the flightsim enthousiast who enjoys complex add-ons like PMDG, LevelD or Eaglesoft could benefit from a console version.Just a little food for thought:- How would you install a Flight1 add-on? How would you purchase it?- How would you navigate around the cockpit, find and click on the APU switch?- How would you zoom in and out, rotate, switch views?- How would you configure AI aircraft?- How would you repaint your favorite airplane?- How would you communicate with ATC?- How would you display GPS, moving map, flight planner, etc and fly at the same time and be able to move for example th GPS around the screen to not cover anything else?- How would you record and playback flights?- How would you use two or more independent displays?- How would you use a home cockpit?- How would you pay for 3rd party devs to get licensed for the XBox SDK? As far as I know/read, the full SDK is not free and only open to very few professional developers (Source: Xbox Dev website)Yea, ideally, it would very cool to do that, to use a headset and get connected to Vatsim or IVAO or whatever and to use a PC for the customization of content that can be uploaded onto an XBox. Or to have a SimMarket integrated and to use all the current hardware that we already have. But... it's technically just a dream that we're far away from.Don't get me wrong: I like it simple, compact and intergrated (I am writing this on a Mac, duh).Pat

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I guess I look at it differently. Anything that introduces and generates excitement for aviation to me is a good thing.Even if the xbox version were a "dumbed down" version of fsx-it might get some shoot 'em uppers interested in aviation, encourage them to even make the transition to a pc version, and even to the real version.....All good things in my opinion.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/8aa8e4...113291f5f4g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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See, that's where our opinions differ. I don't consider a fighter simulation, flying through hoops or dropping flour bombs to be aviation-related, but merely short-term entertainment. Nothing wrong with that, as FSX satisfied a lot of playing/simulation styles. As a simulator and aviation enthusiast you need to know about the weather, the procedures, the flight plan, the charts, fuel, etc etc - and most of the time the planning can be more exciting and rewarding than the actual flight, because it gives me the opportunity to combine the simulation with knowledge that I can use in real life as well.I am very interested in the "real deal". I do have a PPL and I do enjoy leasing a real plane, but the FS gives me an additional inexpensive chance to fly dual-prop or heavies and learn the procedures, for example.An arcade style game (and much of Acceleration for that matter) does absolutely nothing for me and I would doubt that it would help to promote real aviation in any way.Yea, I have played WoW and other games for hours, days and weeks, but I reached a point of thinking to myself: What's the purpose of slashing victim no. 2311 or that I beat the highscore in Guitar Hero? It's just not really that satisfying or serves a particular purpose for me. FS is just so totally different from anything else that most of us have played and, yea, a few people (me) have a strong opinion of why the only FS that we currently have (except for X-Plane, other discussion) should continuously improve to get even more realistic and more "fun" and shall now be allowed to be dumbed down like so many other classic games. Any move to a console would be ten steps back for me, unless it gives me the SAME (or better) level of FSX complexity on a unified, easier to use and more performance-optimized hardware.Pat

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I also have no interest in an arcade style game and frankly the added stuff Acceleration does. I also have absolutely no interest in heavies, fmc's and all that.But it was fs1 and the ww1 fighter, Chuck Yeager sim, and jet fighter 1 that got me revved up about aviation and to earn my ppl in 1989...Anything that encourages interest in any aspect of aviation is a good thing imho-including flour bombs, heavies, and even virtual stewardesses if that is what it takes. :-)http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/8aa8e4...113291f5f4g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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