LES dc-3 v2 in my XP12 hangar at last!!

[Murmur 3,944]

Curiously, I have a distant and blurred memory from teen days of an A-Team episode where Murdock was flying a DC-3, and I remember it noticeably swinging his tail on takeoff. Maybe the real aircraft had marginal directional stability as well?

It would be interesting to watch YT videos of DC-3s filmed from outside.

Edited March 8 by Murmur

[onebob 125]

1 hour ago, Murmur said:

Curiously, I have a distant and blurred memory from teen days of an A-Team episode where Murdock was flying a DC-3, and I remember it noticeably swinging his tail on takeoff. Maybe the real aircraft had marginal directional stability as well?

It would be interesting to watch YT videos of DC-3s filmed from outside.

Two Douglas DC-3 Dakotas - Bing video

[Bjoern 1,157]

1 hour ago, Murmur said:

Curiously, I have a distant and blurred memory from teen days of an A-Team episode where Murdock was flying a DC-3, and I remember it noticeably swinging his tail on takeoff. Maybe the real aircraft had marginal directional stability as well?

It would be interesting to watch YT videos of DC-3s filmed from outside.

Goi to Youtube and search "DC-3 takeoff" or "C-47 takeoff", then watch hours of videos.

I see no evidence of low directional stability that can not be attributed to wind or pilot experience/skill.

[Murmur 3,944]

Extensive flight tests of the DC-3 with a lot of curves, for those who wish to compare the simulated aircraft with the real one:

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19930083829/downloads/19930083829.pdf

[Alec 370]

10 hours ago, Murmur said:

Extensive flight tests of the DC-3 with a lot of curves, for those who wish to compare the simulated aircraft with the real one:

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19930083829/downloads/19930083829.pdf

Yeah Marco,

 

Thats the same doc I sent Jose. Really good. Says the DC3 really needed some strong legs to keep coordinated. I am curious how these DC3 addons compare to the real data now. 

[coastaldriver 920]

Yeah will investigate the flight behaviour tomorrow I have been working through the painting business - very tricky for a lot of reasons. 

What I am working on at the moment if this works out will have a go at the TAP for you. 

[jcomm 5,939]

1 hour ago, coastaldriver said:

 

What I am working on at the moment if this works out will have a go at the TAP for you. 

 

😍

[Bjoern 1,157]

17 hours ago, Alec said:

Yeah Marco,

 

Thats the same doc I sent Jose. Really good. Says the DC3 really needed some strong legs to keep coordinated. I am curious how these DC3 addons compare to the real data now. 

I know for one that VSKYLABS' main developer has yoke time in the real thing, so that should be a bit of an advantage in terms of getting the handling close.

[coastaldriver 920]

I think the LES DC-3 handling discussion has for me raised what is an ongoing problem with respect to XPlane and the match or mismatch between the controls you use with the sim and how the sim appears to work. 

This issue really came out for me with the DC-3 and then Helicopters. First I guess is the unhelpful built in differential braking in the sim program (Myers let that cat out of the bag talking about control sensitivity set up etc) so you have to modify any model acf first to get rid of this aspect to even start to evaluate the controls. Second that sensitivity sim settings contradict or override each other so you can set the sensitivity or response one way but if you then use the curves they then override what the other settings are. Third each and every model I have has different responses in the sim. Some developers suggest particular settings, others other settings. To me it has actually come down to the fact that I have a joystick which has limited movement or excessive movement in really only two axis not three so I am relying on a rotating contact plate attached to a stick to replicate what completely separate control runs do in a real aeroplane - note there are no real aeroplanes that have the rudder controls combined on the yoke or stick! My view is that this program does try to come to grips with this issue but like a whole lot of stuff in the sim there are so many different hardware setups out there and updates, etc etc where do you hit middle ground or the most common denominator! 

Basically my joystick setup is rubbish really and no amount of calibration and fine tuning will overcome the limits of this being some cheap plastic gizmos moving a cheap electrical contact plate or activating a button on/off switch! I guess there are other systems out there with yokes and pedals are they any better no idea and I am cannot bring myself to spend that sort of money to find out they are only marginally better anyway. So I have learnt that no matter how careful I am I will overcontrol or get sharp responses by mere micromillimeters of movement of the stick. 

As for the LES DC-3 it is accurate in the way it appears to handle in the sim as far as I can see! So is the AWX C-47 and VSkylabs DC-3. As my personal experience on type showed and the NACA report confirms there were not directional stability issues with this aircraft at all, pitch yes and roll yes but all within the bounds of acceptable and controllable given the design in the first place. The stability issue can be explored in depth I guess but the simplest and easiest method is to get the thing in the air and then set up normal straight and level flight at normal cruise power by using the controls - will it stay level with no deviations (pitch, roll or yaw) or how much trim is being set to keep it like that! especially rudder or aileron trim! Then watch its behaviour does it deviate? how? Stability in aerodynamics is a complex problem but essentially if it is stable and well designed the aircraft will return to its trimmed state (S&L) of its own accord after a number of osciallations. IF it deviates and continues to get worse it is unstable or it wont return to the previous state then its unstable as well! See as usual no easy answers!

[coastaldriver 920]

So yep I think the LES DC-3 is pretty good overall. The attention to detail and the construction with the textures is exceptional really, even down to the coffee urn and canisters on the galley at the rear! Flight modelling is accurate, performance is accurate. Sounds well - muted compared to the real thing both engine and airflow. That distinctive P&W synchronised rumble seems to elude everybody, LES, VSkylabs and AWX. 

Don't hold your breath for liveries or paints for it. Two days solid work and I managed a half respectable outcome but also had to reduce the texture sizes by 50% and could not get the layering sorted properly. The nml files are the most complex I have ever seen - almost kaliedescopic!  Anyhow had a go this is acceptable but not for release - see if they come up with a paintkit - reverse engineering it has its limits. 

Its a keeper for sure.

Can be done but this is well so so 

 

[Airfighter 150]

Here is a dirty and quick paint kit I've made. Hope it helps.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/cptz1ejcq2w8m8fbpo7w9/DC3_Paintkit.zip?rlkey=xof406hz2ax2amx066f1h0niz&dl=1

[coastaldriver 920]

Airfighter - thanks

 

[jcomm 5,939]

Well, 

I am really glad to read @Coastaldriver's evaluation of the 3 models, particularly the LES.

I agree regarding the use of basic hardware at our desktops... It's a huge limitation for sure. My setup is composed of the HOTAS from an old, broken X52 Pro, a T.16000 purchased circa 2017 and a Saitek Combat Pro Rudder ( discontinued )... I try my best to keep the 3 alive and in good shape, the biggest erosion having been the use I gave them while playing combat flightims up to 2 years ago 🙂

This being said, I have to continue my tests.It could well be due to the ay XP models wind & turbulence, an area that has been mentioned as going to have a facelift in one of the upcoming parches. I will test again with nill winds & turb and see how it goes.

In both the LES and the VSkylabs I noticed that peculiar dance of the tail, from side to side, as well as a feel of inertia that is probably due to the fact that it's difficult, in the absence of proper force feddback,to simulate the forces felt at the controls of the real aircraft, which I believe is more or less light in pitch, but rather stiff in yaw and in roll too... Will continue to test !

BTW, big thanks to @Coastaldriver  for pointing me into the AWX C-47 - Love it !!! 

 

 

Edited March 10 by jcomm

[torfih 49]

I have all three and really like the LES. I have a yoke, throttles and good rudder pedals, disable "Rudder Controls Differential Throttles" and "Rudder Controls Differential Braking" and leave Sensivity at 1. It's a blast to fly! Needs more liveries...

[jcomm 5,939]

I have to be honest - I believe I have to take the necessary time to learn how to properly configure the controllers (rudder and the T.16000 stick) in order to get the best feel from it.

Each of the three modela appears to use a different approach to reproduce the stiffness of the controls, so curves will have to be carefully set for each one.

Edited March 10 by jcomm