Why do the Toliss airbuses feel so much better...

[jcomm 5,939]

Than any other on any platform, with some exceptions for FF and Peter's...

https://youtu.be/Saza8nZi1x4?si=4ruLKp_LujHrKJh0

The 321 NEO is Amazing!!! One day i'll go for the 346 too... 

Edited March 22 by jcomm

[GoranM 3,772]

Putting it bluntly, it's because of X-Plane's more accurate flight model.  The other platforms could catch up and get better.

If an add on has incorrect information entered into the flight model, an incorrect flight model comes out.  And vice versa.  An aircraft can be made in X-Plane with a simple TCDS.

Edited March 22 by GoranM

[BIGSKY 316]

What is you're Real life Airbus A320 experience?

[GoranM 3,772]

I don't have any experience.  But 2 of the testers I have worked with since 2018 are Airbus Captains.  And they have heaped praise on the Toliss Airbuses.  

A real Airbus Captain even streamed a flight for it.

V1 Simulations is a very reputable reviewer of flight sim add ons.  MSFS and X-Plane.

 

Edited March 22 by GoranM

[brinx 276]

3 hours ago, jcomm said:

Than any other on any platform, with some exceptions for FF and Peter's...

https://youtu.be/Saza8nZi1x4?si=4ruLKp_LujHrKJh0

The 321 NEO is Amazing!!! One day i'll go for the 346 too... 

Which other airbuses are you comparing it to on other platforms? I don't have much knowledge about the airbuses in P3D. 

On the MSFS platform there are no study level paypare airbuses(318,319,321,330,340) yet with the exception of the A320 by fenix. So, the short unbiased answer is, the planes don't exist yet to make a fair assessment. I know with the Block 2 update of the fenix, V1 Simulation in his initial reaction said the fenix a320 might be the best airbus simulation out there right now. 

319, 321 are in development by fenix at which point would provide a better apple to apple comparison against the toliss fleet.

Edited March 22 by brinx

[jcomm 5,939]

Yes, add to the list Blackbox711 (who is well known for his detailled FSLabs and MFS analysis too)...

Take the FCOM and FCTM and compare / test the behaviour and systems simulation under different situations and check how close to what is described in the actual aircraft docs translates into the model...

Simulate failures and non-normal scenarios, etc...

Read/listen to/watch the analysis of rw Airbus pilots/captains...

Actually some details like the highly sophisticated turbines modelling but also some aspects of the aerodynamics had to be programmed outside of XP due to limitations in the base sim. But still the much more detailed and consistent base model of X-Plane for sure offers a way better / easier / cleaner frame for developers at all levels of knowledge and sophistication in their creations...

Edited March 22 by jcomm

[jcomm 5,939]

52 minutes ago, brinx said:

Which other airbuses are you comparing it to on other platforms? I don't have much knowledge about the airbuses in P3D. 

On the MSFS platform there are no study level paypare airbuses(318,319,321,330,340) yet with the exception of the A320 by fenix. So, the short unbiased answer is, the planes don't exist yet to make a fair assessment. I know with the Block 2 update of the fenix, V1 Simulation in his initial reaction said the fenix a320 might be the best airbus simulation out there right now. 

319, 321 are in development by fenix at which point would provide a better apple to apple comparison against the toliss fleet.

I used pretty much all airbuses ever released for any of the platforms, starting with the Airbus in ATP Rev. D and the Thallion Software A320 simulator for PC 🙂

Maybe the only I did not touch was the Airsimmer, for MSFS X... 

Presently I use in XP12 the Toliss 319 and 320 NEO, in MSFS 2020 the FBW 320 NEO and the Fenix 320 CEO and Airlinetoools Flgihtdeck A32x.

My experience in the real things was a one hour full flightsim session at the TAP training centre, flying a 320 CEO ( CAE ) including some landings at Madeira (LPMA 05) under really adverse weather scenarios 🙂

I have around 8 jumpseat flights in 319, 320 and 321, never in a NEO.

My memory tells me the best experience I had regarding hand flying was with Peter's Aircraft A320, the Aerofly FS 2 Airbus 320, then in MSFS 2020 in terms of feel, specially in manual mode I find the FBW 320 NEO to be the most convincing, I like the Tolisses very much but in hand flying they feel what I would call "too perfect" 🙂 - I can't find a better way to put it...

No I am not an airline pilot, far from that - I fly gliders, since more than 43 years 🙂

[Bjoern 1,157]

7 hours ago, jcomm said:

Than any other on any platform, with some exceptions for FF and Peter's...

I'd say years of refinement, good source data and willingness to compensate for simulator limitations.

 

Great video, my appreciation for the A321 has increased quite a bit.

Edited March 22 by Bjoern

[C2615 319]

Just add my little cent, twice FPS over FSL320 on P3Dv5 (70+ vs 30~) certainly helped...

[Pe11e 812]

Exactly same thought here. Toliss A319 is my favorite addon currently, by far. I utterly enjoy flying it in VR, the experience in every phase of the flight is second to none. The feeling of taxiing is brilliant, nose gear steering works really nice. Manual flight feels brilliant, being accurate or not. It's incredible how XP11/12 physics make you feel the pure tonnage of each airliner even during taxiing and takeoffs, and most of all during manual flight. I can literally feel the weight below my chair while in VR.

I load Fenix or FBW in MSFS, and they both feel "fake", "digital", light. Best words I can use. No feel if weight at all, and fly-by-wire feels wrong from my POV. I have trouble adjusting the sensitivities for my VKB Gladiator NXT to make it feel more like fly-by-wire, and I can do it to a degree. But still, absolutely no feel of weight at all, and that kills a huge part of immersion for me, 2D or VR, doesn't matter.

Last, but not least, cockpit displays work in tandem with sim fps, means if the sim is locked at 60fps, displays will work at 60fps, mega smooth. It adds to immersion quite a lot. In MSFS, displays are choppy even in High settings, and that means that displays use legacy code from FSX, which used some kind of xml that supported max 18fps. Also, in VR, manipulating switches, buttons and levers are so much easier in X-Plane than in MSFS. Click spots are bigger, and for example with Toliss, no need to click and pull a switch. Just click on light switches and they go to ON/OFF position, easy.

I'm aware that majority of simmers don't feel or even don't care about the "details" I mentioned above, and I respect that. For me, X-Plane is hitting the nail.

[brinx 276]

3 hours ago, Pe11e said:

they both feel "fake"

Fenix feels fake compared to what? Your experience flying a real A320 or your perception of what you think it should be?

V1Simulation who is a real-world A320 pilot has given praise to both the Fenix and Toliss. He is definitely a fan of both. But in particular, he mentioned that the Fenix Block 2 update feels close to the real thing and is probably the best simulation of the A320 that we have right now. A330Driver has also said the Fenix is really good.

 

[Pe11e 812]

1 hour ago, brinx said:

Fenix feels fake compared to what? Your experience flying a real A320 or your perception of what you think it should be?

V1Simulation who is a real-world A320 pilot has given praise to both the Fenix and Toliss. He is definitely a fan of both. But in particular, he mentioned that the Fenix Block 2 update feels close to the real thing and is probably the best simulation of the A320 that we have right now. A330Driver has also said the Fenix is really good.

 

I think I mentioned it in the "Manual flight feels brilliant, being accurate or not." part, that I write from my POV. And my POV is what matters the most in my case. If real Airbus pilot says that Toliss feels awkward, wrong, "fake", I will take that information (with a grain of salt), and continue to enjoy the addon, as how it feels, suits what I expect Airbus to feel, being accurate or not.

When I say that I take real pilot info with a grain of salt, it means that there are many variables in the game. Real pilot are not robots to memorize how exactly aircraft feels during specific flight stick movements, as they are usually focusing on another things. Also, their home flight sim setups are in majority of cases worse than mine, using cheap Thrustmaster Airbus joystick, etc. There are exceptions of course, but generally it's pretty hard to nail fly-by-wire behavior and responsiveness using sim hardware, I think. 
I mean best example is a continuous discussion usually in Facebook MSFS groups, where two real C172 pilots (example) claim two completely different POVs. One claim how Asobo C172 is perfect, flies by numbers, completely on point, while the other say that is far from perfect, it lack inertia, rudder is twitchy, pulls too hard on takeoffs, etc etc. So what to do? Simply choose which pilot to believe and continue with the life.

In short, I always accept professional opinions, and tend to adapt my matter of preference towards it, but in the end, if I utterly enjoy specific behavior or flight model, like Toliss one, there is simply no need for me to chase something more realistic as I'm not preparing myself to be real commercial pilot. I'm just sharing my experience flying Toliss vs Fenix, and compare it. That is least I can do as a simmer.

Edited March 31 by Pe11e

[brinx 276]

1 hour ago, Pe11e said:

I write from my POV. And my POV is what matters the most in my case.

In order to know when something is fake, you must know when something is real. I've heard several real world A320 pilots praise the realism of the Fenix, especially after the block 2 update. So, when a simmer says it feels fake, and an A320 captain says it feels real, I get curious as to what the simmer is using as the basis for their opinion. Given that I have no experience, I will go with the collective of A320 pilots.

1 hour ago, Pe11e said:

If real Airbus pilot says that Toliss feels awkward, wrong, "fake", I will take that information (with a grain of salt), and continue to enjoy the addon, as how it feels, suits what I expect Airbus to feel, being accurate or not.

I have yet to see/hear a real-world airbus pilot that has flat out dismissed fenix/toliss as fake or otherwise. The consensus has been that these are 2 very realistic, high fidelity addons. 

 

1 hour ago, Pe11e said:

Also, their home flight sim setups are in majority of cases worse than mine, using cheap Thrustmaster Airbus joystick, etc. There are exceptions of course, but it's pretty hard to nail fly-by-wire behavior and responsiveness using sim hardware. 

Bingo!!! V1 has addressed this several times in his stream. His advice to those complaining about the way it feels, "get yourself a good side stick". Secondly, make sure it is configured and calibrated correctly.

I think these are 2 great addons. It's okay to have a preference of one or the other. If your main sim is MSFS, it will likely be Fenix.  If your main sim is xplane, it will likely be Toliss.

Edited March 31 by brinx

[blingthinger 649]

'busses (or any fly-by-wire for that matter) are the worst possible case study for a flight dynamics comparison.

Edited April 1 by blingthinger

[jcomm 5,939]

9 hours ago, blingthinger said:

'busses (or any fly-by-wire for that matter) are the worst possible case study for a flight dynamics comparison.

Unless you turn off the 3 ADIRUs and revert to Direct Law 🙂