Hi all

I am currently doing my ATPLs at Bristol Ground School and am on the subject of autoland, something I have never tried in the sim.  I always take over at about 1,000 Rad Alt. 

The study has piqued my interest however, and although I could go on Youtube or Google, I'd rather discuss here with afficionados of the craft.  

I have a couple of questions, uncertainties before I go binning the aircraft into the runway at MMMX later today.

1. For a full autoland, I assume I need both APs engaged?  I always used to just use one before I got into my ATPLs.  When do I arm the second AP? After LOC and GS are captured?  When do I arm approach mode?

2. Whenever I used to key in the arrival runway into the FMS it seemed to take care of flying the LOC and GS.  Do I need to key in a frequency into the NAV1?  I wondered if it was a flight simulator thing that it was being updated automatically.  I'm confused as to whether the info added to the FMS about arrival runway is sufficient.  

3. Is there any way of knowing I am well set up for an autoland before finding out it's too late?  According to my ATPLs, it should say FLARE in white to say it is armed.  

4. Anything else I should be doing?

5. Reverse thrust I assume is my responsibility?  

6. To initiate a go around, do I press that non-visible TO/GA button to the left of the autopilot controls?

TIA!
 

Edited March 30, 20242 yr by Langeveldt

from the SOP:s of a very prominent scandinavian 737 operator (from my exerience, ATPL litterature uses plenty of 737 references)

Quote

 

Dual autopilot operation:
- Both VHF NAV sets with the ILS/GLS freq selected and APP mode
selected, then select the other autopilot to “CMD”.
(If a manual landing is planned following an ILS/GLS approach, engage only one
autopilot.)

Below 1500 feet RA, with the Pitch Monitor Confidence Test completed, the second
autopilot engages. (The autopilot should be engaged in “CMD”, the “APP” mode
selected, and the aircraft stabilised on localiser and glide path prior to descending
below 800 feet RA. If the second autopilot has not been selected to “CMD” prior to
800 feet RA, it cannot be selected).

Observe “FLARE” (White on the FMA) as the armed pitch mode.

An automatic G/A is available with “FLARE” announciated (White) on the FMA “G/S”
(green) is the engaged pitch mode in FMA window.
- The “autopilot disengage light” will illuminate steady red if stabiliser is out
of trim below 800 feet on a dual autopilot approach.
Check that this light is extinguished at 500 feet RA, and terminate the dual channel
approach (Autoland) if the light is illuminated at any time.
- “If “FLARE” is not announciated at 500 feet RA, the dual (Autoland)
approach should be terminated as beam tracking accuracy can not be
guaranteed. If FLARE is not armed by 350 feet RA, both autopilots
automatically disengage.

At 400 feet RA:
A nose-up trim of the stabiliser is introduced at this point (Dual channel only). If an
autopilot fault/disconnect occurs during “FLARE”, it may not be necessary to take any
action as the aeroplane will tend to “Flare” by itself.

At 350 feet RA
If flare is not armed by approximately 350 feet RA, both A/Ps automatically
disengage.

At 50 feet RA:
“FLARE” (Green on the FMA) is announciated and is now the engaged pitch mode.
The autopilot flare manoeuvre starts and is completed at touchdown.
Flight Director Command Bars retract from view.

At 27 feet RA:
Autothrottle “RETARD” mode (Green on the FMA) is engaged, and thrust is reduced.

At Touchdown:
The autothrottle automatically disengages 2 seconds after touchdown.

The autopilot must be manually disengaged after touchdown. Landing rollout is
executed manually after disengaging the autopilot.

 

 

737-700 autoland into Exeter.

 

4 hours ago, Langeveldt said:

Hi all

I am currently doing my ATPLs at Bristol Ground School and am on the subject of autoland, something I have never tried in the sim.  I always take over at about 1,000 Rad Alt. 

The study has piqued my interest however, and although I could go on Youtube or Google, I'd rather discuss here with afficionados of the craft.  

I have a couple of questions, uncertainties before I go binning the aircraft into the runway at MMMX later today.

1. For a full autoland, I assume I need both APs engaged?  I always used to just use one before I got into my ATPLs.  When do I arm the second AP? After LOC and GS are captured?  When do I arm approach mode?

2. Whenever I used to key in the arrival runway into the FMS it seemed to take care of flying the LOC and GS.  Do I need to key in a frequency into the NAV1?  I wondered if it was a flight simulator thing that it was being updated automatically.  I'm confused as to whether the info added to the FMS about arrival runway is sufficient.  

3. Is there any way of knowing I am well set up for an autoland before finding out it's too late?  According to my ATPLs, it should say FLARE in white to say it is armed.  

4. Anything else I should be doing?

5. Reverse thrust I assume is my responsibility?  

6. To initiate a go around, do I press that non-visible TO/GA button to the left of the autopilot controls?

TIA!
 

Although there may be similarities among airlines and their standard operating procedures (SOPs), there are notable differences as well. Some airlines have full Autoland (AL) capabilities, which means that during rollout, they keep the Autopilot (AP) on until the aircraft comes to a full stop or before vacating the runway. PMDG has done an excellent job replicating this feature on their 737. To enable this feature, you need to go to the FMC menu, PMDG SETUP, AIRCRAFT, EQUIPMENT, PAGE 1/17, and select AUTOLAND, FAIL OP, meaning Fail Operational. You will notice ROLLOUT armed (color white), and at 2 FT RA, it will engage (color green) on the PFD. However, it is essential to keep in mind that each airline has its own way of doing things, and their SOPs might differ.

 

Thanks for the replies.

Well I didn't bin the aircraft into the ground, and all looked perfect until the last few seconds on finals, where at about 200 feet the aircraft veered off to the right, the autopilot disconnected (after the veering to the right) and I took control manually to do a fairly normal, if long landing.

I had the frequencies keyed in to both NAV 1s, both A/Ps engaged. APP mode was pressed at about 10DME and I was tracking fine to the runway.  At about 200 feet I had MCP SPD in green, VOR/LOC in green, and G/S in green, with FLARE in white.  At this point the aircraft veered off to the side and I had to take control so couldn't concentrate on anything else.

Any ideas what might have happened?  There wasn't any significant weather around.  I am a bit confused when exactly to press VOR/LOC and when to press APP.  Can VOR/LOC be armed before any sort of intercept?  And then according to the above posts, APP at 1,500 FT.  

I haven't touched anything in the PMDG options, so I guess I should try the above post's suggestions. 
 

Edited March 30, 20242 yr by Langeveldt

26 minutes ago, Langeveldt said:

At this point the aircraft veered off to the side and I had to take control so couldn't concentrate on anything else.

Hi Langeveldt,

This sounds like an MSFS problem -- some problem with your controller -- maybe you bumped it accidentally or it is "noisy."  It could also be a problem from some other source, such as scenery.  I doubt it stems from your flying technique or some realistic aircraft behavior.  Perhaps try a runway at a different airport and see if the problem reappears.

27 minutes ago, Langeveldt said:

Thanks for the replies.

Well I didn't bin the aircraft into the ground, and all looked perfect until the last few seconds on finals, where at about 200 feet the aircraft veered off to the right, the autopilot disconnected (after the veering to the right) and I took control manually to do a fairly normal, if long landing.

I had the frequencies keyed in to both NAV 1s, both A/Ps engaged. APP mode was pressed at about 10DME and I was tracking fine to the runway.  At about 200 feet I had MCP SPD in green, VOR/LOC in green, and G/S in green, with FLARE in white.  At this point the aircraft veered off to the side and I had to take control so couldn't concentrate on anything else.

Any ideas what might have happened?  There wasn't any significant weather around.  I am a bit confused when exactly to press VOR/LOC and when to press APP.  Can VOR/LOC be armed before any sort of intercept?  And then according to the above posts, APP at 1,500 FT.  

I haven't touched anything in the PMDG options, so I guess I should try the above post's suggestions. 
 

Try to follow this tutorial 

or this

If it's still not working, try taking pictures or even a short video to get an idea (if we can) of what's happening.

Thanks all, will check those out.  Airport was default MMMX, runway 23L

AHA, having looked at the vids I didn't have the course set...  Something fairly basic I forgot to do. 

Edited March 30, 20242 yr by Langeveldt

 

1 hour ago, Langeveldt said:

I am a bit confused when exactly to press VOR/LOC and when to press APP.  Can VOR/LOC be armed before any sort of intercept?  And then according to the above posts, APP at 1,500 FT.

Normally, arm APP when cleared for the approach by ATC. The PMDG 737 however has integrated approach navigation (IAN), where the FMC builds its own glidepath (not slope) and course from the fixes of the approach stored in it, like a pseudo ILS beam and a bit like an RNAV.

On aircraft with IAN (rare IRL), you want to engage APP on an ILS only when the ILS signal is being received (magenta diamonds on the PFD for both glideslope and localizer), or else you engage IAN instead. This shows G/P (glidepath) and FAC (final approach course) instead of G/S and VOR/LOC, and the autopilot will follow the FMC-built path rather than the actual ILS beam.

If you flew an 'ILS' without tuning the frequency before you flew an IAN approach. The 737 doesn't auto tune the frequency like newer aircraft.

If you do a full ILS just go straight for APP; there's no need to arm VOR/LOC first unless in specific cases where you may want to delay glideslope capture but intercept the localizer. Obviously, use VOR/LOC on a VOR approach.

Edited March 30, 20242 yr by threexgreen

2 hours ago, threexgreen said:

Obviously, use VOR/LOC on a VOR approach.

To clarify, flying VOR approaches using the VOR LOC button in those types of airplanes is impossible. Instead, we use the LNAV mode, which acts as an overlay for a VOR or NDB.

33 minutes ago, LRBS said:

To clarify, flying VOR approaches using the VOR LOC button in those types of airplanes is impossible. Instead, we use the LNAV mode, which acts as an overlay for a VOR or NDB.

Which types of airplanes?  Those equipped with IAN?  

1 minute ago, Stearmandriver said:

Which types of airplanes?  Those equipped with IAN?  

MY MISTAKE, WRONG AIRPLANE! Thanks. If you pay attention to my statement I did not mention anything about IAN. 

Sorry @threexgreen

23 minutes ago, LRBS said:

If you pay attention to my statement I did not mention anything about IAN. 

I know, that's why I asked.  😉  I was gonna say, we use VOR/LOC for these types of approaches if LNAV isn't available, so I was trying to figure out what type of 737 couldn't haha.  I get it now. 

33 minutes ago, LRBS said:

Sorry @threexgreen

No worries.

12 hours ago, Langeveldt said:

......Any ideas what might have happened?  There wasn't any significant weather around.  I am a bit confused when exactly to press VOR/LOC and when to press APP.  Can VOR/LOC be armed before any sort of intercept?  And then according to the above posts, APP at 1,500 FT.  
I haven't touched anything in the PMDG options, so I guess I should try the above post's suggestions.

You need to have VOR/LOC engaged before pressing the APP button. If I am conducting a circuit at an airport, and I want to fly a race track pattern in the 737, I usually press the VOR/LOC button when I am turning onto base, and then the APP button when I am turning onto final. That always results in the VOR/LOC capture during the final turn, followed soon after by G/S.