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That HAS to be a joke...RhettAMD 3700+ (@2310 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 2.5-3-3-8 (1T), WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian case

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No joke, captains make 65K and copilots 30K, they get to fly shiny new jets though http://www.skybus.com/I'm not putting my life in the hands of a captain that will take 65K to fly a plane that most airlines pay their captains twice that, what do they say, you get what you pay for.Southwest airlines start there copilots at more pay than skybus captains make.

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>No joke, captains make 65K and copilots 30K, they get to fly>shiny new jets though http://www.skybus.com/>I'm not putting my life in the hands of a captain that will>take 65K to fly a plane that most airlines pay their captains>twice that, what do they say, you get what you pay for.>>Southwest airlines start there copilots at more pay than>skybus captains make.It all depends on what you (the passengers) are willing to pay for in fares. You want cheap fares, you'll get cheap service. You want better service, you'll have to pay more. However, it's not fair to make a correlation between an air crew's pay and safety. Most pilots do not become suicidal just because they aren't making the " big bucks ". I know of many pilots, ATPs, that would do what they do for free if they could afford to do so. A good number of airline flight crews do what they do because they love doing it, not because they're looking for financial riches.John M

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>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skybus_Airlines. Incredible. I>bet seat reclining is $.50 per 10 minutes of recline. Can you>believe 156 seats on an A319.People must have to have their>knees resting on someone's seatback too!On the positive side, none of the aircraft they currently have will carry 156 seats, since they are leased from Virgin America and only have a single pair of overwing exits, the maximum allowed onboard is 150, any more and the aircraft would fail to meet evacuation standards.When they're own aircraft begin delivery (whenever that maybe), like easyJet they will need 2 pairs of Type III overwings.Certainly a 'cosy' configuration.

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Not suicidle dude, has to do with the quality of pilots they're getting to work for nothing, hel you can't support a family on 65KLike I said you get what you pay for, an accident waiting to happen with an Airbus 319 captain that is willing to work for 65K, basically what that means is he couldn't find anyone else that would hire him (low flite time, low captain experience, not qualified for a captain position but the airline hires him because he meets the FAA 1500 hour ATP minimums and will accept the LOW fare I mean salary.If he was qualified for the position he would be working for SWA, Continental, AirTran or any of the other airlines that pay DOUBLE that 65K as a copilot.

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There are long lists of fully qualified AAL, Continental, Delta, United and US Airways pilots who would jump at the chance to make 65K per year - at any job.Because they were flying for those airlines and no longer have jobs because of cutbacks.

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I would agree with you reg, if you could show me the proof.

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>Not suicidle dude, has to do with the quality of pilots>they're getting to work for nothing, hel you can't support a>family on 65K>>Like I said you get what you pay for, an accident waiting to>happen with an Airbus 319 captain that is willing to work for>65K, basically what that means is he couldn't find anyone else>that would hire him (low flite time, low captain experience,>not qualified for a captain position but the airline hires him>because he meets the FAA 1500 hour ATP minimums and will>accept the LOW fare I mean salary.>>If he was qualified for the position he would be working for>SWA, Continental, AirTran or any of the other airlines that>pay DOUBLE that 65K as a copilot.>>We all have our different comfort levels. I'm very comfortable flying (whether as crewmember or passenger) with anyone that's proven to be qualified as a first officer or captain irregardless of what their income is. If they have 'earned' their ratings by meeting FAA standards then that's good enough for me. Other then the uncomfortable passenger seating arrangements on this new airline I would have no problems flying with them.John MJohn M

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>I would agree with you reg, if you could show me the proof.Maybe you should show us some proof (statistical data?) that the safety of an airline is proportional to the wage of their captains?Marco

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>Not suicidle dude, has to do with the quality of pilots>they're getting to work for nothing, hel you can't support a>family on 65K>heh, yes you can, unless you live in California or something.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2310 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 2.5-3-3-8 (1T), WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian case

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The pilots would have to pass the same tests etc, i dont see what their wages has to do with their compitence, they wanna get home alive just the same as you or i do!If the situation is the same in the US as it is in the UK, there are loads of people waiting for posistions as FOs etc, they jump at any job to get a foothold in the profession, beggers cant be choosers!Dave

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Summary article:American Airlines boosts pilot recallFORT WORTH, Texas

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Let's look at some starting pay rates for First Officers:ExpressJet (Continental Connection) - ERJ - $19,800Horizon - CRJ/Dh8 - $27,800Mesa - Turboprop - $17,328Mesa - Jet - $19,152Air Wisconsin - BAe-146/CRJ - $21,600Skywest - CRJ/EMB-120 - $17,100TransStates - ERJ/ATR/Js-41 - $19,536Pinnacle - CRJ - $18,900Great Lakes - EMB-120/B1900 - $13,500Republic/ Chautauqua/ Shuttle America - ERJ-190-135 - $20,700Now 10 year CaptainsExpressJet (Continental Connection) - ERJ-145 - $68,400Horizon - CRJ-700 - $91,200Horizon - Dash-8-200 - $63,360Mesa - B1900 - $35,568Mesa - ERJ-145 - $62,106Air Wisconsin - BAe-146 - $78,300Skywest - CRJ - $66,600TransStates - ERJ-145 - $63,936Pinnacle - CRJ - $64,800Great Lakes - EMB-120 - $39,600Republic/ Chautauqua/ Shuttle Amercia - ERJ-190 - $79,200Republic/ Chautauqua/ Shuttle Amercia - ERJ-145 - $69,300A320 Captains for US Airways max out at $125 per flight hour (America West $138) which is $108,00 per year.Northwest is a little higher - Jet Blue is $123 at 6 years - max $139 - $116,760.Southwest is good - which is why they get to pick the cream of the crop10 year Captain - $194 - $181,584Starting FO - $52 the first year - $48,6725 year FO - $119 - $111,384By comparison AAL B73810 yr Captain - $158 - $121,344Starting FO - $35 the first year - $26,8805 year FO - $94 - $72,192By comparison COA B737-50010 yr Captain - $142 - $122,688 (more guaranteed hours)Starting FO - $30 the first year - $25,9205 year FO - $80 - $69,120

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Thanks for the extensive research Reggie,....and I'll bet that those that are lucky enough to be working for anyone of those airlines are happy as can be just to be getting paid to fly.Money doesn't buy happiness, it just makes the things that make you unhappy more bearable.John M

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Funny stuff, copied from the pro pilot forum below, I don't see them in business long.http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=97511Skybus--hahahaJust browsing the Skybus site to see what's up over there. Looks like 156 seats on a 319. That will be some great leg-room.The website also says you cannot "sneak" food onto the airplane. So I would assume that food on the plane will be movie theater priced. I wonder what they will do if you break out a granola bar. The website also says not to call them because they don't have a phone number. There also won't be many agents at the airport to help out.$5 per bag unless it's heavy, then it will cost you $25.Drinks, snacks, pillows, and blankets will all cost you extra. All this with a hub-and-spoke system based in CMH leads me to think that they won't be much of a threat in the U.S. Headfake14 04-26-2007 12:24 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------...I have no comment on SkyBush... mannyaplus11 04-26-2007 12:25 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I can't wait for the first ACLU lawsuit filed by someone with Low Blood Sugar that has to eat at certain times, and some F/A tries to take their food away.Some good times coming up. twepilot 04-26-2007 13:02 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I'll give them 3 days of ops...RV Fins Up 04-26-2007 13:51 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Those are some fine customer services ideas they have there. Can't bring my own snack or drink on?? What a crock of sh1t. I know people are cheap but I'd rather pay an extra $5 or so for my ticket and not have to be nickel and dimed with this crap. skypine69 04-26-2007 14:05 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yeah I call BS on not being able bring your own food on. number one, no pax will actually read that page on the website, so it will be customer service nitemare for the FA. sorry sir you cant have that sandwich you brought on...didnt you read the rules on the chalkboard? well ok, this time but next time I have to take it away. what a crock! and like the other guy said, what if you have someone that needs to eat for medical reasons? what about babies? are they going to sell breast milk? (yeah i said breast) i cant see this lasting very long in its current form. Heavy Set 04-26-2007 14:16 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by skypine69 (Post 1314765) Yeah I call BS on not being able bring your own food on. number one, no pax will actually read that page on the website, so it will be customer service nitemare for the FA. sorry sir you cant have that sandwich you brought on...didnt you read the rules on the chalkboard? well ok, this time but next time I have to take it away. what a crock! and like the other guy said, what if you have someone that needs to eat for medical reasons? what about babies? are they going to sell breast milk? (yeah i said breast) i cant see this lasting very long in its current form.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------The FA's will be strict because they actually get a percentage of onboard sales of food. Their pay increases if you are hungry. That means they could be very strict. Apparently they are only paid $8 an hour, and those sales add to that. Fins Up 04-26-2007 14:30 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Heavy Set (Post 1314772) Apparently they are only paid $8 an hour, and those sales add to that.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Surely you can't be surious. $8 ?? The Prussian 04-26-2007 14:32 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Seems to me that the way they are structuring their operation....I'm surprised they don't make you step on a scale, and price your ticket based on your body weight....:eek: Q400 Gear #### 04-26-2007 14:33 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Fins Up (Post 1314787) Surely you can't be surious. $8 ??--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I am serious. And stop calling me Shirley! thepotato232 04-26-2007 14:35 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Fins Up (Post 1314758) Those are some fine customer services ideas they have there.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------They're not even their ideas. Skybus is a carbon copy of Ireland's Ryanair. This kind of crap may fly in Europe, but consumers in the U.S. aren't exactly hurting for choices when it comes to low-cost carriers. These guys are in for some rough times ahead. SuperKooter 04-26-2007 14:39 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------don't act so shocked if this airline takes off big. This is what the US has been waiting for. In our culture cheap cheap walmart cheap its shocking that this airline hasn't been founded sooner.I expect this airline to soar because every redneck and gansta will now be able to afford to fly. If you think southwest flys the scum of the nation you ain't seen nothing yet. The airplanes will probably smell like a baracks latrine and seeing as how they are only paying f/a 8$ I think we all know who they willing be hiring. Fins Up 04-26-2007 14:44 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Q400 Gear #### (Post 1314791) I am serious. And stop calling me Shirley!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------HA! I wondered how long a respone like that would take. God bless Leslie Nielson. LJ-ABX 04-26-2007 14:55 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by mannyaplus11 (Post 1314678) I can't wait for the first ACLU lawsuit filed by someone with Low Blood Sugar that has to eat at certain times, and some F/A tries to take their food away.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------No lawsuit necessary. The Air Carrier Access Act already requires reasonably accommodation for those with disabilities. They won't be able to prevent someone with special dietary requirements from bringing their own food. skypine69 04-26-2007 15:31 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I wonder if they will charge the pilots for a bottle of water? What about jumpseaters? Every other airline passes out at least a drink to js, and a lot put us in first if available and feed us. they gonna tell us we gotta buy a bag peanuts??? f that! thats what I say. if i get a skybus jumpseater maybe i will tell the FA to charge them for thier OJ. For the record, in europe (well at least on SAS, never flown on ryanair) they sell stuff on the plane, but they dont restrict what you bring on yourself. I think that is the difference. fly4ever 04-26-2007 15:58 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Talked to a furloughed FA who interviewed with Skybus - she said $9 an hour, no per diem (because they claim they will be making out and backs only, everyone based in CMH - at least to start with), and they have to sell merchandise, food, drinks etc... on board. She laughed as she was telling me about the interview but said it was sad to see some people falling over themselves to get in line.How the heck do they do day trip turns to Bellingham and stay within the duty limits? I guess when they break down at an outstation the crew is on their own to pay for food etc... and they'll enjoy the overnight in the Bates Motel. GogglesPisano 04-26-2007 16:10 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------They'll be a media darling for the first few months. Bob_Sacamano 04-26-2007 16:16 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Personally, I've always thought that AirTran carried the trashiest passengers. I've flown on AT 5 times, and it's ALWAYS been a circus. I don't know how those inflight crews put up with some of those folks...Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by SuperKooter (Post 1314799) If you think southwest flys the scum of the nation you ain't seen nothing yet.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Captain X 04-26-2007 16:33 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------They've been talking abou them today on a local radio station......the DJs are a riot! Tearing the idea up all over the place.They even mentioned the FA pay and said if the pilots are paid the same way they are "Staying the #### away!!!" zonker 04-26-2007 16:44 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Southwest has 9 nonstops out of CMH and a bunch of one-stop service to quite a few places, including SEA.http://www.southwest.com/travel_cent...temap_dyn.htmlHopefully LUV runs their asses out of town, and pronto. EatinRamen 04-26-2007 16:45 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------My f/a friends at Allegiant are taking a paycut soon to $13.33 an hour from $20 an hour. They will also now start making a commission wich is a small percentage of the sales they make on-board. Allegiant, Spirit and now Skybus are nickel and dime-ing America... watch out, flying is about to get a whole lot less glamourous. CRJammin 04-26-2007 16:48 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by EatinRamen (Post 1314926) My f/a friends at Allegiant are taking a paycut soon to $13.33 an hour from $20 an hour. They will also now start making a commission wich is a small percentage of the sales they make on-board. Allegiant, Spirit and now Skybus are nickel and dime-ing America... watch out, flying if about to get a whole lot less glamourous.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------...about? Draginass 04-26-2007 16:53 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------At the fares they're charging and the flight length, I don't think food is going to be a problem. Just have a sandwich before boarding and take a small bottle of water. They're not going to be able to search everyone's carry-ons for water and a candy bar and the minimum FA staffing aren't going to be watching everybody all the time. And even if they catch you, what are they going to do?? It's no violation of FAA regs, and certainly not worth it to take you to court for the cost of a bottle of water. I just don't see how they're going to be able to pay for the fuel with the prices they're talking about charging.Flying get less "glamourous?" Where have you been the last 15 years? Big Slick 04-26-2007 17:07 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------As much as nobody on here wants to admit it, Skybus is going to do well. They will be just like Ryan Air. They are going to do to the LCCs what the LCCs did to the legacies.In the near future, international travel will be the only way to make money in this business. Domestic travel is going to be saturated and discounted to death. enigma 04-26-2007 17:28 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by EatinRamen (Post 1314926) My f/a friends at Allegiant are taking a paycut soon to $13.33 an hour from $20 an hour. They will also now start making a commission wich is a small percentage of the sales they make on-board. Allegiant, Spirit and now Skybus are nickel and dime-ing America... watch out, flying is about to get a whole lot less glamourous.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Whoa there buddy, Spirit isn't nickel and dime-ing America, We're nickel and dime-ing Puerta Rico, Haiti, the Domincan Republic, Jamaica, Mexico, Costa Rica, Guatamala, Honduras, etc. Maybe Skybus should pay attention, Spirit -with new Airbi and low wages - isn't attempting to compete with SWA et al domestically because SWA, and AirTran have very non fuel seat costs. As far as I know, Ryan has NO seat cost advantage over SWA, what makes Skybus think that they can compete against SWA? SWA may not offer a whole bunch of amenities, but you do get a free cup of joe and two bites of peanuts. Skybus may have a harder time than some here would like to think. zonker 04-26-2007 17:30 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Big Slick (Post 1314959) As much as nobody on here wants to admit it, Skybus is going to do well. They will be just like Ryan Air. They are going to do to the LCCs what the LCCs did to the legacies.In the near future, international travel will be the only way to make money in this business. Domestic travel is going to be saturated and discounted to death.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------It's not a foregone conclusion that they will do well. In fact, history says they will fail. 8vATE 04-26-2007 17:31 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------The American Consumer?You really think Skybus will do well with the American Consumer?Last time I checked, the airline industry is under tremendous public and Congressional scrutiny for things like customer service, ontime performance and reaccomodation.I guess time will tell. JetFumes 04-26-2007 18:33 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------As far as I can tell, even international will get its share of competition and will have tighter margins (open skies anyone). chperplt 04-26-2007 18:35 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by EatinRamen (Post 1314926) My f/a friends at Allegiant are taking a paycut soon to $13.33 an hour from $20 an hour. They will also now start making a commission wich is a small percentage of the sales they make on-board. Allegiant, Spirit and now Skybus are nickel and dime-ing America... watch out, flying is about to get a whole lot less glamourous.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Actually, the FAs pay scale changed many months ago. They are on a duel scale right now. Base pay of $13 and change plus I believe 11% of all gross sales on board, or their old pay scale, whichever pays them higher. I don't know which works out best, but on a short 2 legger today the FAs sold over $750.00. Truckdriver 04-26-2007 19:18 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Big Slick (Post 1314959) As much as nobody on here wants to admit it, Skybus is going to do well. They will be just like Ryan Air. They are going to do to the LCCs what the LCCs did to the legacies.In the near future, international travel will be the only way to make money in this business. Domestic travel is going to be saturated and discounted to death.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I'll have to disagree. The people who can't afford to fly on B6 or SWA will give Skybus a shot. With fares on both of those airlines going for what they do, most people who need to fly already can afford it so I don't think they are going to find some huge untapped market. Some of the SWA and B6 folks may give it a try once, then they will realize that by time they pay to load up first, pay to check a bag, pay to have a coke and a snack, buy pillow, buy a blanket, then get rammed into an airplane with 6 inches of seat pitch, they will be glad to pay the $79 fare on JetBlue or SWA and have a nice ride. Your gonna pay the same to fly on Skybus or they wouldn't be starting an airline. Only the stupid people will get baited by the fares that they advertise. They may stick around for awhile, but I don't think they will do as well as Ryanair. Europe had NO LCC's when Ryanair showed up, the USA has LCC's with better products than Legacies. They aren't gonna do that great. Global33 04-26-2007 19:28 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------So then, any Sky-busdrivers around here? Curious to see who went there! Lear70 04-26-2007 20:25 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Global33 (Post 1315081) So then, any Sky-busdrivers around here? Curious to see who went there!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------You actually think they're going to own up to it?Especially the CA's who are making what a CRJ CA makes?What's the difference between a Skybus CA and an Ensenada hooker?The hooker makes more (and REALIZES she's a **).Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Only the stupid people will get baited by the fares that they advertise. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I'm sure more than one person will realize they got rooked by the time it's all said and done. Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------They may stick around for awhile, but I don't think they will do as well as Ryanair. Europe had NO LCC's when Ryanair showed up, the USA has LCC's with better products than Legacies. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------BINGO!Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------They aren't gonna do that great. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Agreed. I give them 18 months. clickclickboom 04-26-2007 20:39 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------They are a small operation with approx $170 Million in startup. With poor revenues and 50 million in losses per year they could still remain in business for many years. dotsero 04-27-2007 00:55 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------The fact is, they will soak up a small amount of the marketQuote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Lear70 (Post 1315122) You actually think they're going to own up to it?Especially the CA's who are making what a CRJ CA makes?What's the difference between a Skybus CA and an Ensenada hooker?The hooker makes more (and REALIZES she's a **).I'm sure more than one person will realize they got rooked by the time it's all said and done. BINGO!Agreed. I give them 18 months.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------However, it will continue to grow until they are profitable. Reebo 04-27-2007 01:03 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Global33 (Post 1315081) So then, any Sky-busdrivers around here? Curious to see who went there!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Distiguished aviators from G0Jet :( MalteseX 04-27-2007 12:19 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Draginass (Post 1314941) At the fares they're charging and the flight length, I don't think food is going to be a problem. Just have a sandwich before boarding and take a small bottle of water. They're not going to be able to search everyone's carry-ons for water and a candy bar and the minimum FA staffing aren't going to be watching everybody all the time. And even if they catch you, what are they going to do?? It's no violation of FAA regs, and certainly not worth it to take you to court for the cost of a bottle of water. I just don't see how they're going to be able to pay for the fuel with the prices they're talking about charging.Flying get less "glamourous?" Where have you been the last 15 years?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------They are going to enforce the "no food unless you buy" rule. And it can be done legally. Look at "corking fees" for bringing your own wine to a restaurant, and the many other places you can't bring in your own food or drinks. They can make the rule that you cannot bring your own food on board. Of course people with verifiable disabilities that need special food will be exempt. If they "catch" you, they will charge you. And here's how they do it. Skybus is using payment with credit card only. If you read the rules of the airline and what you agree to pay for a ticket, there is language that says you must buy food from them. If you are caught sneaking food on, i.e. seen eating it, you will be charged a penalty--essentially, you'll be paying for that sandwich twice. Water may be exempt, by law--you may be able to bring on water, but nothing else; or they will charge your credit card. And you will have signed an authorization authorizing them to do so when you bought the ticket. And remember, the FA's have an incentive to catch you and charge you.So, enforcing the rule, is relatively easy. Sunnfun 04-27-2007 12:33 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by thepotato232 (Post 1314794) They're not even their ideas. Skybus is a carbon copy of Ireland's Ryanair. This kind of crap may fly in Europe, but consumers in the U.S. aren't exactly hurting for choices when it comes to low-cost carriers. These guys are in for some rough times ahead.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I said this in the other Skybus thread and I say it here gain: Ryanair has some of the highest payscales for narrowbody pilots in europe. Starting Pay for Captains is $120K, 5th year F/Os make $140K and 5th year Captains over $200K. And they are home every night, no communiting, guaranteed.Clever management like Ryanair's (and Southwest's) apparently values motivated cockpit personell. How clever Sky######'s management team is remains to be seen, looks like they forgot to copy a few important pages...Cheers,Sun'n Fun captain dad 04-27-2007 13:13 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Interviewer - "And here we have the CEO of the new LCC Skybus. What is your name?"Skybus CEO - "Mr. Cocktossen"Interviewer - "I am sorry?"Skybus CEO - "Harry Truman?"Interviewer - "Excuse me?"Skybus CEO - "Bill Diffenderffer, yea that's me. Old Bill Diffenderffer."Is this an alias or a joke.Quotes from Skybus' web site."Oh, and don

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Now check out a post about Southwest Airlines Updated SWA New Hire info. I thought I would start a thread on what all you new hires can expect once you are given a class date at SWA. This is based on my own experinces since I have been here for 6 weeks and thought I would pass some "good to know" info along to all of you in the pool.1. Most likely, you will be staying at the Holiday Inn Select ( http://www.ichotelsgroup.com/h/d/sl/...questid=529439) when you arrive. Your hotel reservation will be from the day prior to the start of class untill your completion date. You do not need to check out if you leave for a weekend, but just let the housekeepers now if you do. The hotel is very accomodating. The above website list's the services they provide such as laundry and free internet access (WiFi in the rooms). 2. The hotel does have it's own restaurant, but you will grow tired of the same old thing after awhile. This is why it's a nice idea to have some sort of transportation while you are here. During lunch while in GS, you can eat at HDQ or drive to some local joints. I suggest Dickie's BBQ. There are also a few supermarkets around (a QuikTrip next door) for the essentials, but again, some wheels come in real handy. There is a microwave and a small fridge in each room. Also, one last note of advice. You will check in on a Tues. Your room key will expire each Tues. Make sure you get your key reset before heading up the elevator on each Tues or find that your key no longer works and you have to lug yourself all the way back down to the front desk. Can't count how many times I did this. 3. They new hire class prior to you will throw a party for you the night prior to your class date. This usually takes place around 6pm and is on the second floor of the hotel. The hotel will give you the details once you check in. You don't have to attend, but it's a good idea to meet your fellow classmates and others in training. 4. You can bring your spouse or significant other the first 2 days of class. This gives them a chance to see what SWA is all about and also learn all the benefits stuff as well. They will be with you the first day, and will be taken on a tour of the complex for most of the second day. They will have fun.5. Once you start class, you will find out who your sim partner will be. You will be paired with a military guy/gal or vice versa. This is done to allow for a even balance of experience. It tends to work out good as you help each other through things you have or not have seen before (FMC, 121 ops etc etc). 6. There is a uniform shop at the training center at which time you will be fitted and your order placed. You will be fitted as well for your leather jacket, but this is not a required item. Keep in mind I haven't seen anyone without one. There are diffrent fabrics and linings to choose, but the more experinced guys would be helpful in this area on which one works best. You can also order your flight case if you need one. 7. First two days of class are business suit. The rest is casual such as Dockers or jeans. Something comfortable is a must. 8. If you have a 2 inch Jeppeson Binder, you might want to bring that to put your FOM in. It will fit in your flight case a bit easier then the issued one. Also bring a flashlight which is a required item for your case. (Hint: You will use it in the sims).9. The instructors are great and make your experience here very easy. After about 3 weeks, you will find out where your temporary domicile will be. You can bid them by preference, but don't count on getting what you want. This is not your permanant domicile award. After you complete IOE, you will then be given a hard line month at either the same domicile or a diffrent, such as my case, and a line of flying. (19 days off for me in Jan) After this month, you will then be awarded your domicile for the remainder until you can bid to where you want to. It sounds confusing, but the training department folks will explain this all to you in more detail once you arrive. The junior base for newhires is OAK. 10. Once your new hire kit arrives, study the limitations, memory items and flows. Having a good grasp on this material will really help while your in the first few weeks of ground school. I can't stress that enough. The training center is open 24 hours so you can go in and practice these things at any time. There will also be instructions in the packet on what to bring with you for your first day. Make sure you have all the stuff signed that is required. It makes the process easier for you and the staff, who are wonderful by the way. 11. Each class has it's own schedule, so I'm not sure if you will get weekends off or not. My class had one full weekend off the entire 6 weeks of ground school. I wouldn't bet that you will be able to get home each week, so make sure you prepare for that possibility. __________________________________________________ ______________Out on the Line, what to expect__________________________________________________ ______________1. Don't be late2. Crashpads: This really depends on where you are going to be based, since some have multiple, while others have very little. MDW for instance, has a tons, all within walking distance to the airport, so no car would be needed. OAK, has none that I ever found. Most guys stay at a wide range of cheap hotels there usually costing 50 bucks a night. Granted, you might only need it 3-4 times a month depending on schedule. I would bet you would be in OAK for atleast a month, but recently that has changed, as a buddy completely bypassed it a few classes back in Jan. Once you can log onto SWALIFE, there is more domicile specific information available.3. RON's. I've been pretty impressed with the hotels we stay at compared to my last airline. Just remember, that all report times are in central time as are the schedules. You must convert it. Also, show up a few minutes early before the actual van time. 4. Take your time. Don't feel rushed to get the thing set up after each flight. It gets easier with time as I am finding out. The Capt's are really cool about it and don't rush you if they know your new. Just stick to the flows and you will gain speed with experience. If you are coming from an other airline, make sure you get your old callsign and thanks for flying your old airline out of your head when doing you PA's. Nothing sucks more then telling your pax thanks for flying USairways Express your first few weeks. Also, don't say *uck.5. Headsets: The company will issue you a ear piece stly headest your second day in training. I purchased the earmold for it to make it more comfortable and used it for my IOE. That was the last time I used it, since it was very strange to me and uncomfortable even with the earmold. I've been using my old Synheisers (SP) since that are TSO APPROVED!!! (another thread)..... Try it out and see what you think if you so choose or bring your own, but wait till before you purchase a Bose headset. There are some TSO issues with it that are trying to be resolved. If you have a sense of humor, you could also show up with a set of David Clarks for IOE6. Where will I be based? This really depends on where you want to be. If you want OAK or MCO, I would say right out of training. If you want Dallas, I would say 6-9 months. Everything else would probably be within 2-3 months once out on line. That's all I can think of right now. I'll keep adding stuff as I come up with more. Again, congrats and welcome aboard. RedDogC130 03-12-2007 11:23 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by 328dude (Post 1277542) 3. They new hire class prior to you will throw a party for you the night prior to your class date. This usually takes place around 6pm and is on the second floor of the hotel. The hotel will give you the details once you check in. You don't have to attend, but it's a good idea to meet your fellow classmates and others in training. 4. You can bring your spouse or significant other the first 2 days of class. This gives them a chance to see what SWA is all about and also learn all the benefits stuff as well. They will be with you the first day, and will be taken on a tour of the complex for most of the second day. They will have fun..-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Great post. I am sure you will get some flame for it from others, but you pretty much stated everything. The only thing I will say to a new hire is watch out for the Wild Turkey at the new hire party. There is at least 1 guy who now has a baby on the way due to the party...yea me, and another that will find out soon. Definetly a party that I can remember. Like they say before, bring a liver with you to class because there seems to be a reason to have a party everyday. Have fun it goes by quick. Charlie Brown 03-12-2007 11:56 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------That is all excellent info. Thanks for taking the time to post that. k3mbbc 03-12-2007 12:06 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks again 328! Redeyes 03-12-2007 12:31 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I got the call last month and am finishing up my type in two weeks. Thanks for putting that together 329, it answered all the questions I had about training. bravodude 03-12-2007 12:37 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I have a question for anybody in the know! I made it past the DB and just got my type this past sunday. who do I call at SW to let them know I have my type! afhercdriver 03-12-2007 12:54 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks 328. Great info! I have what will probably sound like a dumb question to you civilian guys, but do I need a current First Class physical when I show up for training? My will convert to a Second Class this month.Thanks,Jim RedDogC130 03-12-2007 13:21 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------you need it to start but then it can drop TriStar_drvr 03-12-2007 13:21 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by RedDogC130 (Post 1277569) The only thing I will say to a new hire is watch out for the Wild Turkey at the new hire party. There is at least 1 guy who now has a baby on the way due to the party...yea me, and another that will find out soon.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope for your sake the baby on the way is with the spouse or significant other that you brought to Dallas with you... ;) afhercdriver 03-12-2007 13:23 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by RedDogC130 (Post 1277664) you need it to start but then it can drop-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks! I will probably be asking a lot more dumb questions.Jim Tejas-Jet 03-12-2007 13:33 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by afhercdriver (Post 1277636) Thanks 328. Great info! I have what will probably sound like a dumb question to you civilian guys, but do I need a current First Class physical when I show up for training? My will convert to a Second Class this month.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just made a phone call on your behalf....need to have a valid First Class medical on the first day of class. After that, it can lapse into a 2nd class.You're gonna LUV it here.Tejas afhercdriver 03-12-2007 13:42 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Tejas-Jet (Post 1277685) Just made a phone call on your behalf....need to have a valid First Class medical on the first day of class. After that, it can lapse into a 2nd class.You're gonna LUV it here.Tejas-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for taking the time to call Tejas! I can't wait to get started. Hopefully I will be in the 25 Apr class.Jim Whataburger 03-12-2007 15:25 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by bravodude (Post 1277625) I have a question for anybody in the know! I made it past the DB and just got my type this past sunday. who do I call at SW to let them know I have my type!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone in DAL, ASAP. Every class that passes you, you're loosing 20-24 numbers. bravodude 03-12-2007 16:59 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I have been calling all morning. I finally got a hold of someone and they said it could be 3-4 months. hypersonic 03-12-2007 21:11 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------The only thing I will say to a new hire is watch out for the Wild Turkey at the new hire party. There is at least 1 guy who now has a baby on the way due to the party...yea me, and another that will find out soon. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Great! Now I'm scared to go to the party GuppyWN 03-12-2007 22:29 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by afhercdriver (Post 1277690) Thanks for taking the time to call Tejas! I can't wait to get started. Hopefully I will be in the 25 Apr class.Jim-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim, The class is April 25th. Not 25 April :) And I can't agree enough with not saying F#ck on the PA. Gup afhercdriver 03-13-2007 06:45 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by GuppyWN (Post 1278090) Jim, The class is April 25th. Not 25 April :) And I can't agree enough with not saying F#ck on the PA. Gup-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Old habits die hard. I'll try harder!Jim canyonblue 03-13-2007 08:21 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by afhercdriver (Post 1277636) I have what will probably sound like a dumb question to you civilian guys, but do I need a current First Class physical when I show up for training? My will convert to a Second Class this month.Thanks,Jim-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not to beat this horse again but here it goes..............The Class of medical is determined by the ability to safely perform the duties or exercise the privileges of the airman certificate applied for or held. I have a First Class Medical, which is required by all Southwest pilots, and as an F/O it is good for one year. The Class of medical does not change, ie: after 6 months it does not magically change into a second class, but rather the class required for the privileges of the airman certificate applied for or held is what matters. I still have passed the medical certification required by Sec. 67.113 of the FAR's, and it is still a First Class Medical. Bobby Orr 4 03-13-2007 10:36 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------$$$ New hires be prepared to write a few checks the first week of training as well. Expenses that I was not aware of:Uniform $225Leather Jacket (optional) $385Flashlight ???Cockpit companion (optional) $45Party for next class $40Donation to present to Colleen $37 (usually to Ronald McDonald House)molded ear piece for headset (optional) $85I bought a leather Jacket so I had just over $800 in expenses the first few weeks. Of course it can be well under $400 if you choose not to purchase the optional equipment.Good luck and welcome aboard. firstthird 03-13-2007 10:52 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I thought you could payroll deduct the leather jacket and uniform, so it would come out over the first year, 20 bucks a paycheck or something. CF34-3B1 03-13-2007 10:57 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Bobby Orr 4 (Post 1278313) New hires be prepared to write a few checks the first week of training as well. Expenses that I was not aware of:Uniform $225Leather Jacket (optional) $385Flashlight ???Cockpit companion (optional) $45Party for next class $40Donation to present to Colleen $37 (usually to Ronald McDonald House)molded ear piece for headset (optional) $85I bought a leather Jacket so I had just over $800 in expenses the first few weeks. Of course it can be well under $400 if you choose not to purchase the optional equipment.Good luck and welcome aboard.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just as a foot note on the leather jacket:If you have a Perrone from your previous job, it can most likely be converted to SWA spec. If I remember the conversion price from Perrone was $75 or so, and they send your old embroidered liner back as a keepsake. RedDogC130 03-13-2007 11:20 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------As for party for the next class...try more like $100. You need to throw a good party, not the min to save money. People before you spend a good dime to show you a great party not just for the new class but for everyone there. The party sets the tone for the rest of training. Bobby Orr 4 03-13-2007 11:34 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------All true regarding the $$$. If you pay up front for the leather you do not pay any sales tax on it and save 8%. Uniform pieces you can payroll deduct and no savings paying for it up front.Just be aware that there are some expenses first couple of weeks. Once again, welcome aboard and have fun during training. WNFO 03-13-2007 13:22 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------How do they work your pay while in training? 328dude 03-13-2007 14:59 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I was 2g every two weeks untill they took the advance out on the third paycheck. hypersonic 03-13-2007 16:42 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Questions:Is there a fitness room inside of the hotel? Is it safe to go outside for a run? Thanks SWA/FO 03-13-2007 16:44 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------How bout you guys helping out the old SWA/FO from all the injustice on flightinfo.com? Where are my SWAPA brothers when I need them? Peace out.... hypersonic 03-13-2007 17:50 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------How bout you guys helping out the old SWA/FO from all the injustice on flightinfo.com? Where are my SWAPA brothers when I need them? Peace out.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't be your brother (you know why ;) ) but I am on your side. You got the best sense of humor here on FI.Peace out....brother Bavarian Chef 03-13-2007 18:04 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by 328dude (Post 1278535) I was 2g every two weeks untill they took the advance out on the third paycheck.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 geez? That's four grand a month. Seriously? I got around 1700 a month at jb (after the taxes and exorbitantly priced healthcare, or as I like to call it, my "401k substitute"). Benjamin Dover 03-13-2007 18:49 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by hypersonic (Post 1278686) I can't be your brother (you know why ;) ) but I am on your side. You got the best sense of humor here on FI.Peace out....brother-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- YGBSM!!!!!!!!!!!! hypersonic 03-13-2007 19:31 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------YGBSM!!!!!!!!!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- deleted 328dude 03-13-2007 20:27 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by hypersonic (Post 1278624) Questions:Is there a fitness room inside of the hotel? Is it safe to go outside for a run? Thanks-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a fitness room in the hotel. A run outside the hotel is not recommended. hypersonic 03-13-2007 20:39 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thank you so much 328 bravodude 03-13-2007 21:37 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------an update for anyone who is curious. i was in the jan db. got the type this past sunday and was told to expect about 3-4 for a class date. today i got an email for an april class don't know which one for sure but the email said april. I cant stop smilling! k3mbbc 03-13-2007 22:32 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Congrats Bravodude!I received my e-mail as well for April training as well. Can't wait! puddlejumper101 03-13-2007 22:44 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------if you are going to be a commuter at SWA then MDW has to be a commuter's dream. The crashpad situation there is ideal. Just keep that bit of info in your back pocket. It's not that the other bases are not commuter friendly...it's that MDW is extremely commuter friendly.If studying is not your thing then just make sure you know your flows. chapters 2, and 3 of the FOM, and callouts. (immediate action items too). Know these and you will be more than ok. 328dude 03-14-2007 05:06 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if you are going to be a commuter at SWA then MDW has to be a commuter's dream. The crashpad situation there is ideal. Just keep that bit of info in your back pocket. It's not that the other bases are not commuter friendly...it's that MDW is extremely commuter friendly.quote]Yes, I would agree that MDW is the commuters dream, but is also the biggest commuter base by far and is hard to get to sometimes. Flights fill up fast going to MDW. toa2mdt 03-14-2007 09:00 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------This is an excellent thread! Thanks to everyone. I have my interview (2nd one) next week and can't wait to find out. It's even better that other posters haven't bashed anyone. Long Time Gone 03-14-2007 09:04 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Redeyes (Post 1277623) I got the call last month and am finishing up my type in two weeks. Thanks for putting that together 329, it answered all the questions I had about training.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Congrads.....Heard from your wife about the good news.Just remember....It's all about the "quality of the water".You'll be missed. GuppyWN 03-14-2007 09:15 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I've just got to lob one in here. I have seen multiple posts about the company emailing folks. Come on. I know they're busy but this is the biggest day of that mans career. Pick up the phone and tell the dude with a voice! Not an email. I thought we were the people airline.Gup REK 03-14-2007 09:28 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I would cut them a little slack. The email is just an update on when they can expect, not the actual class date, right? Anyway I would hope so.rek k3mbbc 03-14-2007 09:40 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------REK....you are correct. For training classes, they just send you an e-mail inviting you for training the next month (received mine yesterday!). You have to get in contact with them to get the specifics.Back in July 06, I received an e-mail with no subject line. I almost deleted it thinking it was more junk e-mail......it was my invited for an interview! BVT94 03-14-2007 10:47 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by SWA/FO (Post 1278628) How bout you guys helping out the old SWA/FO from all the injustice on flightinfo.com? Where are my SWAPA brothers when I need them? Peace out....-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your SWAPA brothers are at the Age 60 Blitz....Then they're off to the headset blitz... WNFO 03-15-2007 20:43 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Come on, let's add some new stuff and keep this post going. Bobby Orr 4 03-15-2007 20:53 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------New Stuff?? On the weekends do not bunker down in your room and study all day. It is the exception, not the norm for the guys who do the hotel vanishing act. As a matter of fact may I suggest Cowboys Red River on any weekend night. More hot Texas women than you can shake a stick at. If you have a light Friday, go on Thurday. All the off duty rippers are there in droves. Does not matter if you don't like C&W music either. If you like women you will get over the music. About a $15 cab ride each way. That is the best piece of advice I have ever given a bunch of new hires. Peace out! AV8OR 03-15-2007 23:30 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"I suggest Cowboys Red River on any weekend night."100%, grade A, amen to that brother. You could easily have more good time than you bargained for there. Propblast 04-27-2007 12:06 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bump it MalteseX 04-27-2007 12:38 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------...... Aubie 04-27-2007 14:22 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------congrats to everyone goin' down to Dallas...just wanted to throw in my $.02 for what it's worth (about $.01)...The better you know the flows, callouts, etc before you go the more fun newhire training is going to be. If it's not a blast something has gone drastically wrong. Study beforehand so you don't have to waste quality social time in Dallas studying all the time. Don't be '"that guy" that's never around because he's always studying or "that guy" that has to raise his hand every 5 minutes in class to ask a stupid question or show off his intimate 737 systems knowledge. Getting on board with the culture is at least as important as the classroom stuff. I'm still tight with just about everybody from my newhire class and that was 2 1/2 yrs ago. Have fun and enjoy the koolaid... it tastes good....

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Im sorry you just cant say that about a captin just because of his pay, im sure there great pilots, who can fly the a319 better then most people !, Here in UK fire fighters get payed nothing, but if your house was on fire who would you want to come and put it out ?

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>Southwest airlines start there copilots at more pay than>skybus captains make.well technically no. SWA FO 1yr makes $52/hr. i understand and feel the pain though. i hope they fail miserably.

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>By comparison AAL B738>10 yr Captain - $158 - $121,344>Starting FO - $35 the first year - $26,880>5 year FO - $94 - $72,192fwiwthere are no 10 yr AA CA's. look at the max 12yr capped CA rates. no 1 yr FO's either. still over 2,200 on th street.and those saying they'd do the job for free are high as a kite. these people are trained professionals (who despite doing what they love to do) should be adequately compensated as such. the airline industry wages have gone DOWN in nominal and real terms since the 80's, while airline management wages have gone way UP in nominal and real terms.gate to gate, flying is the greatest job in the world. it is all the other junk which makes it taxing. skybus is getting the lowest of the low and desperate regional pilot who want to fly an airbus for poverty wages. to me responsibility for 150 lives on a daily basis is worth more than 65K. to be fair to skybus, a 1yr CA at American makes $35/hr, a 1yr 319 CA at USAirways makes $25/hr (of course there are NO 1yr CA's there). as a matter of fact the junior FO at USAirways (East) is about 17yrs of seniority.

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sounds like a union problem there bro

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I didn't say that anyone should do their job for free. I said that some of us ,"IF WE COULD", would do it for free because we love flying so much. I realize we all have to eat, but I still fail to see a correlation between a big fat paycheck and safety. If that was true then we should see a commuter airline crash about every other week or so.The reason we don't is that these crews want to go home at night too, just like everybody else onboard. Some will argue that commuters have more accidents than the majors. This is true, but is not necessarily due to lack of pay for the flight crews. Number of flight flown per day, types of airports they fly into and, sometimes, lack of sophisticated equipment are just some of the reasons stated in NTSB reports as causes of commuter accidents. I've never seen low pay as a reason for an incident.John M

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>I didn't say that anyone should do their job for free. I said>that some of us ,"IF WE COULD", would do it for free because>we love flying so much. I realize we all have to eat, but I>still fail to see a correlation between a big fat paycheck and>safety. If that was true then we should see a commuter airline>crash about every other week or so.>The reason we don't is that these crews want to go home at>night too, just like everybody else onboard. Some will argue>that commuters have more accidents than the majors. This is>true, but is not necessarily due to lack of pay for the flight>crews. Number of flight flown per day, types of airports they>fly into and, sometimes, lack of sophisticated equipment are>just some of the reasons stated in NTSB reports as causes of>commuter accidents. I've never seen low pay as a reason for an>incident.John,it isn't the money more than the environment. a lower paying airline will in general treat you worse. the days will be long, the overnights will be short, and there is a hostile work environment. this is what is not conducive to safety and leads to fatigue which is one of the top causes of accidents.

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Now that is something I can agree with.....been there and done that. From a business point of view, most "start up" airlines can't afford to pay market value for their crews. Their initial overhead, such as acquiring equipment,flight slots, staffing, advertising,etc., take a huge toll on the pocket book for the first few years. They also usually cannot get very profitable routes during this time. As a new hiree you have to be aware that your not going to make the paychecks that the established airlines are offering. But, it can offer a great experience and build time in aircraft that you could only have dreamed about flying before. But as you said, unfortunately a lot of these new airlines are mismanaged and all too often this creates a bad working environment. We kind of do it to ourselves though (as pilots) because the big bosses know that if a crewmember gets burned out that there will be plenty of new, hungry to get that airline job, applicants walking on his ramp the very same day.It's like a "Catch 22"....How do I get the experience to fly for an experienced airline?.....Go fly for an inexperienced airline:-hmmm John M

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