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teropa

How is it really done?

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Hi all, a question for people who really know how to fly heavies...I understand that after calculating V speeds for take-off, pilots aim to fly the aircraft a V2+10 or V2+15 immediately after take-off until reaching acceleration altitude. I mainly use the LDS767, Wilco A320 (new version) and PMDG737 and I regard myself as an experienced user with these aircraft. I am also half way through my PPL at the moment.I find it difficult to maintain V2+15. I rotate the aircraft to the desired pitch when Vr is called, usually 15 degrees, or sometimes use the FD as the guide to the initial pitch. I find, by the time I get a positive rate I'm usually well over V2+15 and have to pitch the aircraft higher to slow it back down. Does the aircraft behave differently in real life, or do pilots ignore the V2+15 and just keep the aircraft stabilised at the speed they find after take-off? Thanks for reading and I hope someone can clear this up for me.Sam.

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Sounds to me like you are maintaining your T/O thrust throughout your climb out. Retard your throttle(s) when you have established your desired rate of climb to the airspeed you wish to hold.You can also engage your auto-throttle once the aircraft is established in a stabilized climb.John M

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I maintain my T/O thrust until thrust reduction altitude, usually set at 1500/2000 feet.

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There are many factors that come into play that determine what the attitude/airspeed of an airplane is during all phases of flight. Weight, windspeed,air density,obstacle avoidance and noise restrictions are some of the things we need to keep in mind during takeoff when we start talking about thrust and airspeed. Practice establishing the rate of climb first (the whole object of the takeoff is to get away from the ground as safely and quickly as possible) then manipulate the throttles to get the airspeed you want for your climb out. You will find that after a little practice you will get a feel for what attitude to set for your climb out and when to reduce your throttle settings to maintain your airspeed. Do this until it becomes one simultaneous motion. Use your VSI for pitch atitude and your throttles for airspeed. Depending on the factors I mentioned above you may find that you will need to retard your throttles earlier than what you've been doing.

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Whats the highest pitch you can achieve whilst regulating with airline requirements. I know that if you've got enough thrust behind you, pitch isnt really a factor, but in normal airline operations, what do they determine as a "max pitch"?

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>Whats the highest pitch you can achieve whilst regulating>with airline requirements. I know that if you've got enough>thrust behind you, pitch isnt really a factor, but in normal>airline operations, what do they determine as a "max pitch"?Those v speeds you ask about come into play only if you lose an engine. If all your engines are working, and you're not too heavy, you will normally blow through all those speeds near V2 very very quickly, often before you even leave the ground. As long as your engines are all working, just keep a comfortable nose up angle is all you will have to do and accept the accelerating speed. Usually, a 15-18 degree nose up angle is about as high as you want without making things uncomfortable for the passengers. Once you climb through the acceleration height, you can make the callouts for all those V+whatever speeds that you've gone through already all at once and start cleaning up the plane. It is only if you lose an engine on takeoff will you end up looking and waiting for each of those V+whatever speeds one by one to come up.

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In the USA, the FAA doesn't have a set "max pitch" attitude other than you can not operate an aircraft in an unsafe or reckless manner. So you can pitch your aicraft as high as it will go within the parameters set by the manufacturer (and ,of course, ATC restrictions). However, for the comfort (and possibly safety) of your passengers you will probably want to limit your max deck angle to 12-15 degrees. Again, this depends on the type aircraft and other factors.My personal experience is in light turboprops and jets flying mainly charters. Although not common, we have established 30* deck angles, or higher, going 5000'/min plus to get to altitude ASAP whether due to traffic or weather conditions....or to just show off.;) John M

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FAR 91.307 would limit the max pitch to 30deg unless everyone has a parachute, which they don't in an airliner.

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Pipersam: Do you takeoff using Autothrottle, TO/GA? And, if so, at what point do you activate/deactivate the Autothrottle?I usually set needed thrust to spool to stab. manually, and then engage autothrottle TO/GA all the way till Autopilot to Command. And maintaining/accelerating to desired speed using pitch only.

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You are correct. The only time you can exceed the 30* pitch/60* bank angle rule without having parachutes onboard is if the only people onboard are required crew members or for the purpose of flight training manuevers.John M

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Johan, what I tend to do is spool up to maybe 40% N1, and once things have stabilised, hit the TO/GA button. The engines then spool to take-off thrust, and i maintain that thrust using autothrottle until thrust reduction altitude. I also usally use a de-rated take-off thrust, plus a de-rated climb thrust. Unless I have an immediate altitude constraint, ie. level off at 3000ft to adhere to the SID, i will always use 100% of the thrust available (climb thrust) during climb, and use pitch to control speed. (I say I do.... I usually hit VNAV and LNAV after reaching 2000ft.)

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>Johan, what I tend to do is spool up to maybe 40% N1, and>once things have stabilised, hit the TO/GA button. The engines>then spool to take-off thrust, and i maintain that thrust>using autothrottle until thrust reduction altitude. I also>usally use a de-rated take-off thrust, plus a de-rated climb>thrust. Unless I have an immediate altitude constraint, ie.>level off at 3000ft to adhere to the SID, i will always use>100% of the thrust available (climb thrust) during climb, and>use pitch to control speed. (I say I do.... I usually hit VNAV>and LNAV after reaching 2000ft.)OK. So at thrust red. alt. you go manual and set thrust to desired speed? But the 100% climb thrust, is that With the de-rated climb?Anyhow.. After 2000ft AGL I usually arm LNAV & VNAV but still fly manually up to around 10 000. Then I go A/P to CMD.How do you manage the aircraft on approach/landing?Here I disengage A/P and autothrottle when I

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Johan, I usually let autopilot do the work for me after reaching 2000 feet. Am I lazy? Using the decent add-ons now available, for example, the new Wilco Airbus series 1, I program thrust reduction altitude to 2000 feet, and acceleration altitude to 3000 feet. The autopilot will automatically change the thrust settings appon reaching these altitudes. This also depends on the SID i'm flying. If short legs, and tight turns are in order, i leave the aircraft flying below 200 IAS so that it can complete the turns without overshooting them, and after that I will let the aircraft accelerate to 250IAS. Answering your question regarding the approach, it really depends on what mood i'm in. Usually I don't file a flight plan with the defualt FS9 atc, but instead just use flight following for traffic information, and fly the FMC stored flight plan as accurately as possible. Other times i will file a flightplan for ATC, for vectors to final. I usually let autopilot establish the aircraft onto the ILS and glideslope, and once the aircraft is in full landing configuration, (I like that to be usually 2500' indicated on the radio-altimeter) i will disengage the autopilot, and fly the approach myself, and then once at about 1000' i will disengage the autothrottle.

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This is specifically for the 763, initial climb:After liftoff, use the FD as your pitch reference (cross checking ind. airspeed and other instruments). If the FD is NOT used, your airspeed and attitude are you're primary pitch references.The FD commands pitch after liftoff to maintain a target speed of V2+15 to 25 knots until another pitch mode is engaged. In other words, don't engage LNAV or VNAV before takeoff. V2+15 is the optimum climb speed with takeoff flaps. It results in the max. alt. gain in the shortest distance from takeoff. Acceleration to higher speeds reduces the altitude gain. If the airspeed exceeds V2+15 during the initial climb, stop the acceleration but do not attempt to reduce airspeed to V2+15. Any speed between V2+15 and V2+25 knots does not significantly affect the takeoff profile. Retract the gear after postive rate of climb, as indicated on the instruments. Do NOT apply brakes after becoming airborne, as it's automatically applied when the gear lever is placed in up. For an immediate turn after T/O, start the turn at the appropriate alt. (normally at least 400 AGL) and maintain V2 + 15 to V2 + 25 with takeoff flaps. Note the max bank angle of 30 degrees is permitted at V2+15 with takeoff flaps. After the turn, go ahead and your at or above flap retraction alt., accelerate and retract flaps whilst you climb.For your Autopilot engagement:It's FAA certified to allow engagement at or above 200ft AGL after takeoff. XXXXXX airlines recommended min. alt. for autopilot engagement is 1,000 AFE. The plane should be in trim, and the FD commands should be satisfied prior to turning it on. On the flap retraction schedule:At flap retraction altitude, which is usually 1,000 feet, select climb thrust, accelerate and retract flaps on the flap retraction schedule. VNAV is the recommended technique for acceleration. If VNAV is NOT used, then select FLCH and set the command speed to flaps up maneuvering speed. Check to make sure that the thrust reference changes from TO to CLB on the EICAS. If it doesn't change automatically, then go ahead and do it by hand. With your speed increasing, your probably wondering when to retract the flaps. Here's a few rules of thumb:For both the 757-200-767-300, when the airspeed reaches the maneuvering speed "F" for the existing flap position. Note that the maneuver speed gives you adequate buffet margin for bank angles up to 40 degrees.Here's a nice little schedule:Flaps 20 or 15:---------Flaps 5 at VREF+20Flaps 1 at VREF+40Flaps up at VREF+60Flap 5 T/O----------Flap 1 at VREF+40Flaps up at VREF+60----------Final climb - VREF+80Hope this helps ya. If you have any more questions on flying the 767-300, let me know some way, some how (PM)!

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