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clayton4115

question on ndb approach (pic)

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hi alli am trying to get my head on ndb approaches, i know basically how it works, with the bearings, trackings etchowever what i want to know is as you can see in this pic, what happens if you are coming in from the south, how would you execute this approach, would you need to fly to the IAF? then execute the approach that way?is this how it is done for all ndb approaches? as you can see from the pic i am guessing the entry to the ndb procedure is from FALCON?what happens if i am coming from the south?http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/194376.jpg

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No, you don't have to come from Falcon, that's just reference point (tells you how to find CASSE off a certain radial (205), and apparently the FQF R213 also a fix to help aid your descent)If you were coming from the south, ATC would probably clear you direct CASSE and then report established on the published segment of the approach. I believe what you would do as the pilot is to fly DIRECT CASSE at or above 8700 then enter a hold, well you might not hold, but you'd need to do a parallel or teardrop entry to get a course reversal (flying outbound on the 167). And then do the procedure turn to get back inbound. When you're inbound CASSE (347) you'd tell ATC you're inbound/established and they'd clear you for the approach. Altitude-wise you'd cross CASSE at 8000 and you could descend down to 6880 by the time you get to the Falcon R213. Looks like straight-in mins are also 6880 msl...edit: all that above is assuming you're doing the published approach...In the real world, ATC might vector you to the 347 inbound CASSE and you'd get on that and fly straight in.... But I'm not positive on that part...

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I'll take a stab at it though the last time I think I did an ndb approach was on my ifr checkride in the early 90's. First off-being in the Denver area you would be in a radar environment with Denver approach (132.75) and they most likely would expect you to or at least ask you if you wanted vectors to the final approach. I've flown to Centennial and it is quite a busy airport, so they would prefer to get you going on the approach as fast as possible so as not to hold everyone else up behind you.If you asked to do it on your own (and I could be wrong on this as it has been a while), from the north you might go to falcon, follow the 205 radial for 17.7 dme and turn to the outbound bearing of 347 once you get to the lom. You would track outbound-do the procedure turn remaining within 10 miles, and then track back on the 347 bearing.However, if you notice the lom say iaf-not falcon. Therefore, from any direction you can really head there. However, doing it on your own, you would need to do the procedure turn. But from the south what I would do is head to the Lom-enter the hold and teardrop out, then catch the 347 bearing outbound, do the procedure turn, and then head in.When I got my ifr ticket in the early 90's my plane had an adf. I still remember my teacher saying-if the weather is that bad you are nuts to do a ndb approach-go to an airport with an ils.Now-the faa is decommissioning ndb's in the US (along with eventual decommissioning of vor's), and with gps approaches with waas considering the precision they give vs. the very non precise ndb there is no reason to do them anymore-our plane doesn't even have one (at least working). However, they are extremely difficult to do and I admire you doing it! :-) I might have to try one and see if I even remember how. I see Ryan got you at the same time.GeofaMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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Woohoo, comparing my answer to an actual instrument rated pilot I'm fairly correct LOL! I'm an air traffic controller so I'm really going off that knowledge (I'm not radar certified yet - but watch A LOT) and basic instrument rules learned in FS

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thanks guys, yes i like to get my head around it as i read somewhere "if you know how you can do an NDB approach" you can do any approach,so if they are doing away with ndb approaches, does that mean if i was a real world student pilot, they would not teach you these approaches anymore?these ndb approaches reminds me of the old semaphore signals of the railways of yesteryear.

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If I recall even when I did my exam in 1991-you were not required to do one -unless your aircraft had an adf . Unfortunately, mine did and the examiner made me do a partial panel ndb approach-talk about mean!I do remember my instructor saying once at the faf-if you just hold your heading you will probably do just about as good as following the needle.GeofaMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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>so if they are doing away with ndb approaches, does that mean>if i was a real world student pilot, they would not teach you>these approaches anymore?I think they still teach NDB approaches but it all depends what aircraft you are using for your training. On some latest glass-cockpit aircraft it is not even possible to shoot and NDB approach since the equipment is missing. I don't think you will find many pilots that miss NDB approaches.If you are learning how to shoot one - make sure you are doing it with a cross wind because then the real fun begins and your NDB competency is fully tested.Michael J.http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9320/apollo17vf7.jpg

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ok this is another onehow would you execute this ndb approach if you were coming in from the south (or any direction) would you first track over the ndb then if you were a category C aircraft head outbound at a heading 310 and come back in?

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>how would you execute this ndb approach if you were coming in>from the south This is strange chart and I would say incomplete. The first chart clearly marked the IAF (initial approach fix) from which the approach would commence. This chart has no IAF. But regardless of the above there is only one logical place where all (no matter of direction) approaches would begin - the NDB. So yes, first you fly towards the NDB, overfly it and then proceed as depicted.Michael J.http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9320/apollo17vf7.jpg

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yes this is in Australia where i live, so naturally i prefer to learn the NDB approaches using local charts. :(

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Hi Clayton,I did this NDB approach while an instrument student out of Jeffco (now RMM). We had one C172 with an NDB in it (they all had GPS units), and while (as Geof says) you would be insane to take such an a/c on a checkride :) I did fly it into both this and the KFNL ndb 33 approach (to the north of Denver) while training.Geof is spot on- at this airport there is no option to do the full approach, if you want to play here you are on radar vectors. This place is too busy to be playing around with trying out approaches. We usually did the GPS approach here through BEJCO. I think that every time I tried any approach there we had opposing traffic taking off to the south, so our instructions when contacting tower would be to break at the circling altitude and fly an easterly heading until we got back onto Denver TRACON.KFNL, however, is another thing all together- an untowered airpport out of the Denver Class Bravo airspace, so we would often do a full approach with a PT there, including the NDB 33 approach.I hope that this helps. I've added a link to some information on approaches (although this may be somewhat dated now).http://www.whittsflying.com/web/page7.315A....htm#ApproachesBruce.

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