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tunnelcat

Mythbusters new thread, airliners and passengers at the controls

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Well, it wasn't the right episode about the conveyer belt but it was good at least.One question that came up was that no non-pilot (passenger) had ever had to take control of an airliner and land it in an emergency. I'm sure that many of our PMDG, Level-D and Airbus pilots could do it quite well.However there was ALMOST one case that a non-pilot might have had to fly an airliner. It was in the case of the hijacking of United 93. If the passangers HAD managed to retake the aircraft from the terrorists, then SOMEONE would have had to fly the plane since both pilots were reported killed or incapacitated.I'm still amazed that there has never been at least ONE case (at least that I've heard about) of all the pilots being incapacitated on an airliner, requiring the a passenger to fly the plane.Kim

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>>>fly the plane since both pilots were reported killed or>>incapacitated.>>I may be wrong but I don't think this was the case. They were>simply together with the passengers but not incapacitated.>You may be right, but the pilots could have easily been killed in the struggle to take back the aircraft. If that HAD happened, then passengers would have had to land the plane.Kim

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There was another case with a greek airliner losing pressure, and everyone on the plane except a flight attendant were left unconscious.... Think it was a Helios flight, but I don't remember...According to the Discovery show "Mayday", the flight attendant was attempting to contact ATC for help, but the radio was on the wrong frequency, and the plane ran out of fuel and crashed...So, I would call this a definite case where a non-pilot had to take control of the aircraft due to both pilots being incapacitated, but the aircraft simply ran out of fuel before he could get contact with ATC and attempt to land...Anyway... As I've said before, I believe that us flightsimmers would definitely be able to get the aircraft safely on the ground... If the Mythbusters can be talked through landing an aircraft with zero previous flight or flight simulation experience, surely we can do it better... :(

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It is especially plausible (sic) when you consider that the Mythbusters did not use autopilot. I have another question: What plane was used for the skydiving sequence? At first blush it looked like a PC-12, but it had no forward airstair and what looked like fixed gear.Any spotters out there?Best Regards, Donny :-waveFLYing? It's cool. Trillions of birds and insects can't be wrong.

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According to an FA with that airline who is a simmer, the FA on the crash aircraft crew who they suspect of trying to take control of the aircraft was also a flightsimmer with experience in complex FS aircraft.There were a couple reasons he thought the FA was unsuccessful.The accident aircraft was a different model (B733?) with much of the controls quite different than the PMDG aircraft and several modifications to electronics since the plane was built.Most importantly - the FA was definitely suffering from oxygen depravation induced brain damage and very near collapse himself by the time he realized there was an issue/ major problem. Probably too late to be able to make the coordinated intelligent decisions necessary to fly an aircraft.--------------Could a flight simmer take over and land an aircraft in very good shape and without major mechanical issues? I'm certain most could - especially at a field with an ILS and a very long runway in an appropriately equipped aircraft. Landing an aircraft isn't exceptionally hard - getting the descent right, the speed on descent right, the flaps and gear down at the proper times, etc. Those are harder.One thing which I don't remember in FS but has been a part of every cockpit ride in a jet I've done is OAT and it's modification of the speeds and rollout distance.A simmer might also have trouble stopping a big aircraft because we'd probably stand on the brakes and blow the tires.Things like the emergency descent the Cypriot aircraft would have had to make - diagnosing and fixing pressurization problems - those are where the FS experience would fall short.If it were me - first I'd request a military base away from population centers. Then I'd make sure I shot at least one missed approach with TO/GA about 150 ft AGL - to know that I could go around if I got out of shape/ off the centerline.

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>If it were me - first I'd request a military base away from>population centers. Then I'd make sure I shot at least one>missed approach with TO/GA about 150 ft AGL - to know that I>could go around if I got out of shape/ off the centerline.This is where I would be afraid of a simmer taking the controls. Someone with just enough knowledge to be dangerous. In reality, you are not an airline captain. You start requesting a military runway and tell them you're going to shoot a missed aproach, and they're going to tell you to shut up and do exactly what you're told.The only advantage a simmer has, is having familiarity with the cockpit. They wouldn't have to explain to you how to arm the speedbrake or lower the flaps. Every time this question comes up, a lot of guys start explaining how they would "take command". Who knows what sort of weird habits or thinking this guy has developed flying FS. Frankly, if I were on an airliner and a hack simmer jumped in the left seat, I'd kill him before I let him take over. Bottom line, as a simmer, I'd be scared to death of the real thing, and wouldn't do any more than I had to in order to keep it airborne until I got someone on the radio who knew what the #### they are doing. Anyone who thinks differently, probably won't survive the crash.EwingKATLAlcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a store, not a government agency.MSI K8N Neo2 PlatinumAMD Opteron 185 2.6 Ghz Dual Core2GB Kingston HyperX (2X1GB) Dual Channel DDR 2-3-2-6 @ 1TXFX nVIDIA GeForce 7900 GS 256MB DDR3 AGPSound Blaster Audigy LSSilverStone Decathlon 750W +12v@60A +5v@30AFS9 on WinXPPro (SP1)

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Reggie is a certified airline captain I believe...:-)He was putting himself in a simmer's shoes and giving his recipe for success...Best Regards, Donny:-waveFLYing? It's cool. Trillions of birds and insects can't be wrong.

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"The only advantage a simmer has, is having familiarity with the cockpit."I suppose it depends on the simmer. Many of us who take simming seriously have a FAR/AIM and know and practice real-world proceures regularly. Foe instance, one of the replies in this thread cites a flight attendant who wanted to help but did not know the correct radio frequency. If I recieved no response on the current frequency, I would tune to 121.5 (guard or emergeny frequency) and try that. I'd set the transponder to 7700 (emergency squawk).If it was a case of depressuraization, I would try to descend even as I tried to get help on the radio. I feel like I'd have some chance of using the autopilot to descend but if I couldn't do that, I'd turn it off and, hopefully, know enough to reduce power and manage speed to avoid tearing the wings off as I got to a lower altitude.If I was able to contact someone on the radio, then I believe that if those two idiots on Mythbusters can land it, so can I.R-

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Oh yeah. I forgot about that one. It was a B733 Helios flight and an FA did take over the controls and he had simulation experience as well.Unfortunately, He was too overcome with hypoxia for any success at landing. He might have been able to land if he wasn't so incapacitated and the fuel hadn't run out. If he gotten into the cockpit a lot sooner and immediately commenced a descent, things might have been different. There are several good B733 simulations (above and beyond the default FS B737) out there that would give a simmer a lot of the knowledge required to fly and land that old of a model 737. I still think that a simmer would have a better chance at succeeding in getting the plane down in one piece than a novice. At least he/she would have some familiarity with the flight systems and avionics and use the A/P.All I can say is that I would love to fly in a full size simulator and I'm jealous of those who have done it! Kim

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No I'm not a pilot, but the strong recommendation to shoot a missed approach first was from a DC-10/MD-11 pilot.

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I'm sure there are plenty of simmers who would do quite well. But, you never know. I suppose you could ask to do a go-around. It just seems like you're increasing the risk of a mishap, to me. Especially if you get one of those guys who just scream around in fighters with their Saitek joystick. I wasn't knocking Reggie. I'm sure he could do it. I was referring to some posts I have seen in the past, where guys start listing everything he would do..... scary! :-eek EwingKATLAlcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a store, not a government agency.MSI K8N Neo2 PlatinumAMD Opteron 185 2.6 Ghz Dual Core2GB Kingston HyperX (2X1GB) Dual Channel DDR 2-3-2-6 @ 1TXFX nVIDIA GeForce 7900 GS 256MB DDR3 AGPSound Blaster Audigy LSSilverStone Decathlon 750W +12v@60A +5v@30AFS9 on WinXPPro (SP1)

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One of the first things I noticed when I got to fly jumpseat in Challengers and Gulfstreams was that pilots discuss and setup for a missed approach even on a crystal clear day on their home airport - where they almost always make visual landings, not flying the ILS.Discussing it and have a couple fly FS with me - not setting up for and practing missed approaches was their biggest criticism of how I fly and some of my on-line friends.As one pilot who flew DC-10's and MD-11's put it - "You have to plan on and be setup for a missed approach every time you approach the runway. The MA has to be your normal expectation, a successful landing is second.If you don't approach the runway every time ready for a go around - you're going to push a landing when you shouldn't and crash. In your sim or in the real world."Now, based on my experience with FS, and most of the people I've seen fly on-line - we'd probably have to do at least one go around - because we are going to miss the touchdown marks and flare the aircraft too high. We'd float down the runway feeling for the ground.Because this would be the very first time we had real vision of the runway.Whatever complex aircraft can teach us - the flat screens of FS cannot give us the true depth preception of a real landing. No matter how well the view looks from the FS cockpit - the real world view is different.To me the scariest moment would be when I took the plane off the autopilot to flare and touchdown. I'd have to have the confidence and practice to know I can go around successfully.

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I did a BA 737 simulator at an airshow, that had a full size feel and cockpit, and believe it when I say it was way different from FS. Much harder to fly. The instructor told me the controls would be more responsive, but I found them less so. I guess there's something to be said for flying with a yoke rather than a joystick. I landed it okay though, but with instruction, and he was doing things like the flaps and gear. But when I looked at my report (sadly that was tucked into my 747 model box which got stolen from my bag) I had followed the ILS beam almost all the way down. Always within parameters.

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>I may be wrong but I don't think this was the case. They were>simply together with the passengers but not incapacitated.And you are indeed wrong. Both pilots were incapacitated at best, and most likely dead, or near death, shortly after the cockpit was taken over.

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