1. How real pilots deal with STARs and the IAPs? lets say I filed a plan that includes a STAR, when I am getting closer to my final destination, the controlers aknowledge that I am fliying a STAR? or do they give me the Vectors they want, no matter my original plan filed?2. If I am in the cockpit, would I recieve, for example, the following order?United XXX heavy descend and mantain XXX feet and fly XXX IAP?3. If I didn't file a STAR or a IAP, could I receive randomly the order to fly one?I don't know if my fquestions make sense, overall they ask about the probability to fly a published procedure, depending if I filed the procedure on my initial flight plan or not.Thanks for the response...

>1. How real pilots deal with STARs and the IAPs? lets say >I filed a plan that includes a STAR, when I am getting >closer to my final destination, the controlers aknowledge >that I am fliying a STAR? or do they give me the Vectors >they want, no matter my original plan filed? see my post to dan earlier. i'm sure this is covered in the manuali don't know it is a star, per se. all i know is your flight plan. at 40 miles you will be switched to approach (if there is one), and he will tell you what runway and approach to expect. at this point, if you want a specific approach, choose "req IAP appr" on the menu. it will ask you for the runway, and the approach you want. then approach will approve that request.>>2. If I am in the cockpit, would I recieve, for example, >the following order? >United XXX heavy descend and mantain XXX feet and fly XXX >IAP? pretty much. there is an entire tutorial on this in the manual>>3. If I didn't file a STAR or a IAP, could I receive >randomly the order to fly one? you will be given a "full" approach, or a precision ILS approach>>I don't know if my fquestions make sense, overall they ask >about the probability to fly a published procedure, >depending if I filed the procedure on my initial flight plan >or not. >>Thanks for the response... hope this helps. the manual is available at www.jdtllc.com/v3/rcv3.pdf

Like JD says:Usually the first indication is with Center, near the TOD point. This could be at FL350 for a jet, or lower for a GA aircraft. You will be told to "expect [name] arrival".Later, when descended into the STAR from the IAF, you may hear instructions to adhere to altitude restrictions for the STAR- most time though it's vectors, especially as you get closer to the airport. Somewhere here too you here to "expect runway 123".Approach will clear you for an intecept to the landing runway, usually the one you were told to expect before. Tower will give you landing clearance.So, each facility gives you clues for what's coming up in the next sector/facility, as well as direct control for where you are now. There is nothing period, like the thrill of being the subject of the excellent coordination between FAA facilities. The hand-offs, the clues for what's coming up, it all makes for an experience that's really something- once you get past the nerves and understand what's going on :).Bruce.KBJC, Jeffco, CO.

" 1. How real pilots deal with STARs and the IAPs? lets say I filed a plan that includes a STAR, when I am getting closer to my final destination, the controlers aknowledge that I am fliying a STAR? or do they give me the Vectors they want, no matter my original plan filed?"In the real world, as an aircraft approaches its destination the controller will most probably clear them for a STAR (not necessarily the one they filed for).The pilots will acknowledge the clearance and fly the STAR (If able. Otherwise they must advise ATC "unable fly the STAR" and will most probably receive vectors all the way from out there). If the destination airport has Approach Radar, then when about 50 nm from the airport they will be handed off to Approach who 99% of the times will give them radar vectors and altitude clearances so as to position them for an intercept of the LOC used. These vectors will almost always not coincide with either the STAR nor the published IAP routing.In the real world, it is extremely rare that a STAR is flown in its entirety if it includes segments within a 50 nm radius from the destination airport.In that respect RC is very "real", and I really wonder why users insist flying an antire STAR as published, calling it "realistic"... If only RC knew about hills, mountians and noise abatement routings... :-)"2. If I am in the cockpit, would I recieve, for example, the following order?United XXX heavy descend and mantain XXX feet and fly XXX IAP?"In the real world, the chances of being cleared to "fly an IAP as published" are quite slim. Most of the times that this happens, it is at pilot's request, for practicing reasons.However, if the airport does not have Approach Radar and the wx is IMC, you will most probably be cleared to "fly an IAP as published", as Approach does not have the means to guide you for a safe intercept."3. If I didn't file a STAR or a IAP, could I receive randomly the order to fly one?"I the real world, yes. I believe the paragraphs above explain at what stage in flight you may expect to receive a STAR clearance (which you can refuse, in unequipped), and under what circumstances is a clearance to fly an IAP as published likely to be given.Best RegardsStamatis

Thank you guys, very good responses, going to the manual again... counting the days back (as a new user)....

Hello, At KPVD, our local controlled airport, an often used STAR is the TEDY2. The last two fixes on this STAR are LAFAY and MINNK. As I very often listen to the Ocean State Approach frequency (KPVD Approach Control) it is evident, depending on the chosen runway, whether the aircraft is picked-off the STAR at LAFAY or almost at MINNK. A minor angular bank from LAFAY places the aircraft in a direct line with 5R or, with a greater bank turned directly East and passes right over my house during the southward turn. (The aircraft look so lovely at approx 2500 feet.) In either case, LAFAY or MINNK, the aircraft is within a 30-35 nm radius of KPVD. My house is approximately 8 nm from 23L and seems to be some sort of a point where the aircraft turn southward to intercept the 23L Loc.This is true of Long Finals but the Short final turn southward is at a 4.5 nm fictitious marker.Regards

In the real world, it is extremely rare that a STAR is flown in its entirety if it includes segments within a 50 nm radius from the destination airport. In that respect RC is very "real"...Well stated! I completely agree, RC handles area arrivals extremely well. I made sure I noted that very scenario in the flight planning section of the manual. :7 It's quite common to start getting vectors off of the published arrival prior to crossing all of the fixes on the plate.Before anyone screams "foul", there ARE exceptions to practically every "rule". ;-) The slogan from a well known adult beverage comes to mind: "Some days are better than others". :-lolIf I had to sum up flying in controlled airspace in the real world AND with Radar Contact it would be with two words:BE FLEXIBLE A flight plan is just that, a PLAN. Once a flight is off the gate all bets are off and pilots will have to react to ATC needs in real time.I can just see Doug's blood pressure going off the scale when a pilot replies "Ahhh negative center, unable to make that turn for sequencing, I've not completed the arrival procedure yet". :-lol :-lolThe STAR ends whenever approach says it ends. I'll leave LNAV engaged along the published arrival up to the point where I start getting vectors for sequencing. At that point I switch over to heading select mode and put away the arrival plate. It did it's job just fine and now approach control is doing it's job. See y'all at the gate!:-waveMike Chttp://jdtllc.com/images/RCbeta.jpg

Thanks guys, I am very anxious to put my hands on RC. I know I will enjoy it.

My turn: Well stated Mike!

Hi Mike, I agree with all you say except, probably, the last part where you mention AC doing their job. Then again I guess it all depends on what you mean by 'their' job.Regards and a Good Thanksgiving Day

It did it's job just fine.."It" meaning the published arrival procedure provided proper guidance into the terminal area...and now approach control is doing it's job. Meaning that the approach controller is providing adequate vectors for sequencing off of the published arrival route to a point where the pilot will be in position to either:1) Fly a published instrument approach procedure or,2) Fly a visual approachThat's what I meant. :-)And a good Thanksgiving to you to sir.Mike Chttp://jdtllc.com/images/RCbeta.jpg

Hi again Mike, You stated, if I may combine the two sentences, " Approach Control is doing their job by providing adequate vectors" then we are at what I consider to be the core of RC's Approach Control weakness. This indeed is a strong indictment to make about that portion of the RC program and I realize that. In a word or two, the only way you can be confident in the vectors Approach Control gives you is to be rather familiar with the procedure of moving safely from the STAR to the arrival runway. If one is already familiar with the various angles of the vectors needed to do this then why have Approach Control? Approach Control, the RC way, is great as long as your destination is on flat land something like a prairie. If not then use some other means of guidance. "..and now approach control is doing it's job." "Meaning that the approach controller is providing adequate vectors for sequencing off of the published arrival route to a point where the pilot will be in position to either:" I've discussed this issue, at least my perspective of it, to death and I will just let it die here.Have a good Thanksgiving

Gabriel,It works like this in our airspace on VATSIM (and in the real ZAB):Let's say you're flying the BUNTR1 STAR into KPHX Phoenix Sky Harbor - just before you reach the first point on the STAR (usually the ZUN or GUP transitions) Albuquerque Center will say: "UALXXX, join the BUNTR1 arrival, cross HOMRR at 12000, 250 knots indicated, Phoenix altimeter 29.98"That's your clearance to fly the STAR and it also gives you pilot's discretion to descend whenever you want as long as you meet the crossing restriction at the HOMRR fix. Once you're about 10 or 15 miles from HOMRR, center says:"UALXXX contact Phoenix Approach on 119.2, have a good night"You contact approach:"Phoenix Approach, UALXXX with you 12,000 passing HOMRR"Approach says:"UALXXX good evening, Phoenix Approach - fly heading 210 vectors for the ILS Runway 26 approach - descend and maintain 6000, Phoenix altimter 29.98"That's real world procedure to use radar vectors after the "boundary fix" (HOMRR) because it would get way too crazy in such a crowded Class B airspace to have everyone attempting to fly an IAP totally on their own - vectoring gives the controlers much more control (LOL ;) ) over the flow and spacing.Once you're in the right place to start the approach you'll hear:"UALXXX you're 10 miles from PRUNN, turn left heading 230 descend and maintain 3000 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS Runway 26 approach, contact the tower 118.7 at PRUNN"That's it - you're good to go from there... hope that helps!Ryan

Hi Gabriel and the group, I said I was going to let this one die an unnatural death but couldn't resist a reply on this point. Don't take my word: Try to fly the Madwin Three Arrival into R29 at KOAK. Follow Approach Control's directive religiously. (Best at nightime.) That is just one example. If I am paying the salary of the Approach Control people I, along with the people dependent on their every word, expect more than that. If not then the lawsuits would be phenominal. Definitely the last word from me on this subject.Regards

> Don't take my word: Try to fly the Madwin Three >Arrival into R29 at KOAK. Follow Approach Control's >directive religiously. (Best at nightime.) OK...what happens?Sidney Schwartz [KPDX]Horizon Pilot--flight plans and scenery for FS2002http://sidneyschwartz.homestead.com/index.html