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Brian Doney

Position and Hold

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Hello all.Quite frequently, I've been given instructions to line up and wait with landing traffic on short final, in as close as 3 miles for an earlier flight today.Usually when this happens, and depending on what aircraft I'm in, I'll just wait for the arrival to land before I enter the runway. Typically, I'm in something heavy, with simply no possibility of getting lined up, cleared for T/O, and airborne in such a short time, so as not to cause a go around.Today I was in an MD-80, and figured I'd give it a shot. I lined up as fast as I reasonably could, got T/O clearance almost immediately after aligning, and as soon as the clearance was out of the controller's mouth, I was rolling. I had no chance, and though I expected it to happen this way, having an RA almost immediately after lift off as the landing aircraft climbed out over the top of me left me wondering:Any way to maybe prevent this from happening ? Some sort of limit to apply ? Even a, "Position and hold after the landing XXX on X mile final" would be great.This is with the new test version, just FYI.

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Hi Brian,Was everything okay before the new version? Are you running FSUIPC v3.617? Have you rebuilt your scenery database?The check that you're clear to line up is well tested and reliable so I'm surprised your having these problems.If the problem persists please create a log and send it to JD.launch rcv4click debugload the .plnclick start rcOnce you're cleared to "line up and wait" stop RC, zip up the log and send it.Cheers,

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That parameter can be opened up a bit quite easily. We'll do so if we see enough flak about this. Also, "...immediate takeoff..." will be a part of RC in v5.

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Good morning,I experience the same behaviour as described above. The only difference being that I rarely fly heavies, but there has been more than one instance where i've been just about landed on.FSUIPS 3.617RC: 4.01 (4.0.3737)thank you,realm174

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>Hello all.>>Quite frequently, I've been given instructions to line up and>wait with landing traffic on short final, in as close as 3>miles for an earlier flight today.Just been reading in "Airports" magazine about the work of the ATC tower at London Gatwick, the world's busiest single runway airport. At busy times clearance to t/off with incomers 3 miles out is the norm. They prefer 6 miles but have to work down to 3 to handle the volume!Iain

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Boy that requires some quick reactions by the pilots taking off..... That's a disaster waiting to happen.

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For complex aircraft one pilot (as is usually the case with FS) has quite a load to handle. Trying to set up all parameters while taxiing and doing a checklist and comm while rolling past the hold point and lining up is quite a load. It is true that RC provides some assistance with autoreply and other stuff with the PNF but for some people this introduces other problems.Therefore just a bit more clearance in the seperation on final to let you line up and give it the gas may be necessary. There are a few cheats I use such as turning on the transponder early and landing lights on at the hold point. Using the mouse to set parameters and turn things on for a quick rolling take-off is a pain.I control final seperation with AISmooth.To insure I'm set up to go when taxiing and told to contact tower I just ack and then contact when I'm ready to go whether or not I'm rolling. I keep an eye on final traffic with TCAS so I know what to expect.We are talking heavies but close in final spacing also happens with GA mixed with small commercial at smaller "independent" outlying and feeder airports.The point is to be in full take-off config before entering the runway and if you are not ready refuse to line up but not acking.

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Ron,I would never take the runway without being ready to go now.If I could receive take off clearance from the hold point I'd be fine with that.I also use AISmooth.I've done everything I possibly could to get on and off the runway as quickly as possible.I guess the point is:"I keep an eye on final traffic with TCAS so I know what to expect."This I have no problem with, I'm usually mode C just before reaching the hold, but, when I actually have to disobey instructions to avoid letting RC put me into a situation like this, that kinda bugs me a little.Especially as it happens so often, not every flight, but, often enough.After using RC for a bit now, I guess I'd like to see, not really more features in AI handling, but more transparency. The only time I am reminded of the man behind the curtain, in terms of RC, is whenever there's AI involved. Be it the situation we are talking about here, or the "parting of the sea" feeling when enroute. Just some thoughts.

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Hi Brian,Edited for spelling.I agree with Ron in that you should be fully configured for take-off once you've been given clearance to line up / taxi into position.The only things I do as I line up are switch on the landing and strobe lights and select LNav on the MCP. All other controls are set.We had a lot of discussion during testing on this issue. If you allow too much of a gap between inbounds then you could be waiting ages especially if you're in a queue at a busy airport. So whilst 3 miles is a bit tight providing you don't dawdle once cleared you should be okay. If an inbound is within 3 miles and you've been given clearance then wait until he's cleared the active. You're still number 1 as far as RC is concerned. Just watch out for other Ai if there's a holding point on the other side of the active as they may push in ahead of you. 27L at Heathrow is an example.We hope to include an 'immediate' departure command in a future release. Probably only when an inbound is within 4 miles although that distance will be supplied by a r/w controller.Cheers,

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I was trying to avoid going over the insinuation that this is a fault on my end..And ya know what, I'm not going to argue about it now.10 years of this and 2000 VATSIM hours have taught me how to be ready.In each and every instance I have been, as ready, if not more so, than you.Since you like to challenge my preparedness, there's one back at ya.I would not have brought this up otherwise.No matter who you are, and how, "ready" you think you can be, if cleared into position in a heavy PMDG744 with traffic on 3 mile final, you will cause a go around if you try it, and there is no "good" reason to keep it this way.Period.I am a little irritated now, won't deny it, not by RC funnily enough, but by the responses I've received here.I guess I'll just drop it since you two know better than I do.

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>No matter who you are, and how, "ready" you think you can be,>if cleared into position in a heavy PMDG744 with traffic on 3>mile final, you will cause a go around if you try it, and>there is no "good" reason to keep it this way.>>Period.Brian,From another perspective, your point is well-taken. You are correct that regardless of how "ready" the individual is (regardless of a/c flown), the fact of the matter is that RC *may* take a bit of time to clear you for takeoff - that coupled with a short final AI, and "who-knows-what" criteria used by FS to trigger the go-around, often result in a go-around for that AI. I have had what you report happen to me (moreso in the PMDG 744 because of its taxiing difficulty - less so with the LDS 767) Quite frankly - I don't care (about the AI). If ATC clears me on the runway - then the runway is MINE! Let the AI go-around! ;-) In the real world, such would not happen - you would be cleared for immediate t/o BEFORE taking the active. Doug has mentioned that this capability will be in V5.Yes - we have tested this capability and the current "position and hold" logic represents a reasonable balance between efficiently getting you off the ground, and allowing AI to land in front of you (of course, while still holding in position at the hold line!!!! ;-) )I have had cases where an AI on 5 mile final resulted in me waiting for him to land, other cases an AI on 3 mile final will get me position and hold. I figure its a timing thing, considering all the ground and air traffic interaction going on when TWR is working landings and departures.JD and Doug take all comments and issues to heart. It will be addressed, but perhaps more likely as part of the V5 logic design and development.Hope this helps ...-michael

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Hi Brian,I'm sorry that you feel irritated by the replies (presumably including mine) that you've received to your original post. It was certainly not my intention to irritate you.If you feel so inclined press the Debug button each time you start RC4 and if you do receive what you consider to be a unreasonable command to line up then post JD the log and it can be looked into.Cheers,

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Ray, Michael,My post was a bit inappropriate, and for that I do sincerely apologize.I just got the impression that you weren't actually listening(reading) to what I was trying to say. I know that I am doing everything I can already to minimize the issue, and to only be told that I'm not doing enough, well, rubbed me wrong. Again, sorry for that.I want to reiterate what I've said in the past, RC has completely revolutionized my sim experience, I haven't looked back since my CD arrived.My orignal post wasn't really looking for a fix, as I don't really see this issue as a true "bug", I just think it's an area that could use a bit more work. You've stated that v5 will address the issue to some extent, and that is good enough for me.

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My post was wordy but sometimes for the "edification" of others not familar with r/w demands I could put in something the original poster would know just to be sure he/she knows where I am coming from.There are three things I would like to clarify that are already in this thread:There was a bug introduced two versions ago in FSUIPC where AI on approach were not seen and premature runway clearance was granted even though you were not #1 in the takeoff queue.I do not like runway clearance when I am still quite a way from the holding point. My workaround was to ack (7) when told to contact tower and then when I am holding or approaching the holding point contact tower (1). This workaround lets RC take a fresh look at AI on final before giving runway clearance.My comment on mouse clicks while taxiing referred to covering the view out the window with an overhead pop-up to operate landing and system devices as necessary. Blind taxiing including onto the runway is kind of difficult.I was not commenting on your proficiency but just describing some non-r/w tactics I use to work around these limitations of the computer environment.

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My guess at this point is we'll use 4m-3m for immediate, and anything greater for normal. Who knows. Two things for sure... 1, the betas will hold our feet to the fire at to whether it's acceptable or not :-) (and thank goodness for our betas!), and 2, we'll never please everyone.I was riding 'jump' on an L1011 from KMIA-KATL years ago. In the interest of fuel conservation, the captain did't call for #3 to be lit until he was clr'd into position (and quickly) clr'd for T/O. I was very uncomfortable with several things I saw in that cockpit that day. We made it to KATL though.

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There are some turbo-props and jets that just taxi too fast with all engines at idle. The CRJ200 is one that comes to mind and in the POSKY forum the designers suggest that just like in the real world the engine not be brought up until close to the hold short line all of this checked out and systems set again by the PNF. It is more of a brake saver than a fuel saver and I imagine all systems can be run off the one engine fired up during taxi. In this case I guess assymetrical thrust at idle is not a problem.I do not know if any trijets follow this procedure.There are some other multies that have firing up engines during the take-off taxi stage for fuel and brake conservation and some have an engine shut down after exiting the runway.I have seen multi turbo props do this as well including twins as long as the surface conditions allow steering correction with assymetrical thrust. I'm sure that the off engine was feathered as well (on some it happens automaticly with no oil pressure) but then at taxi prop drag is probably not an issue. Seeing as I do not have two brains and four hands I do not follow this very well.Obviously you made it to landing on the flight you describe :)

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>My guess at this point is we'll use 4m-3m for immediate, and>anything greater for normal. Who knows. Two things for sure...>1, the betas will hold our feet to the fire at to whether it's>acceptable or not :-) Roger that! ;-)

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Depending on what we are flying, any crew assistance add-ons (if the model can handle crew assistance tasks), which determines the PF workload, how about making rolling and immediate take-offs an option to disable on the options page or better yet controller page since the workload will be flight/model dependent. It also accommodates those on a learning curve that may be slower to respond.

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Hi Brian,Having had time to reflect on your original post and my replies I accept that I didn't address your particular concerns so please accept my apologies.Thank you for your good grace in your reply. I'm sure all us testers have experienced the situation you described and during testing I know JD tweaked the distance value after complaints that we were sitting at the holding point for ages waiting for a take-off slot.Thinking out loud perhaps we can use the Aircraft Data options to determine the minimum acceptable distance for an inbound. For example, if you ticked 'heavy' it would take longer to line up so an inbound would have to be no closer than 5 miles for a standard lineup (4 miles could initiate a 'cleared for immediate departure' call) whereas if you choose any of the other three types the minimum distance could be reduced to 4 miles (3 for immediate).Just something for us to chew over. I'm sure you can appreciate everyone has different piloting skills and response times and we have to find something that is acceptable to everyone - not an easy task!Cheers,

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Ray,Thanks for the reply. Please no apologies, I should have formed my original and subsequent posts better.I look forward to seeing what you guys are able to come up with.It isn't an issue that I see too often, only as of late, maybe in part because I've been spending alot of time going in and out of O'Hare.I think Ron may have hit on something as well. I've always switched over to tower, on a "Monitor tower" type handoff, as soon as instructed. This can result in getting a P&H very early, well before reaching the hold point, and may be contributory.Either way, it is something that I can easily work around for now, thank you for the discussion.

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>I've been spending alot of time going in and>out of O'Hare.>>This can result in getting a P&H very>early, well before reaching the hold point, and may be>contributory.You get *early* position and hold flying out of O'Hare!???? I've grabbed my spot in the t/o queue and had dinner before I was #1 for t/o @ O'Hare.Another topic: do you use the multiple runways AFCAD version of O'Hare? Really sweet to be on hold for 27L w/traffic landing 27L and 22L. Just like the real world.-michael

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Hi Brian,Mates again! :-beerchugDeparting from such a busy airport certainly taxes RC to the limit especially if you have Ai % around 100 as I do. How well RC works in this respect is always being monitored and reported to JD by us testers. Hopefully we can continue to tweak things so as to make it as real as possible.<>I'll keep an eye on this with my future flights. Unfortunately with the World Cup my flying time is being severely limited.Cheers,

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>I'll keep an eye on this with my future flights. Unfortunately>with the World Cup my flying time is being severely limited.Really Ray!World Cup football is one thing but flight simming is something else! ;-) Iain

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Brian,From my real world experience as an ATC, I can assure that tower controllers take into account a number of things in relation to the departing aircrafts ability, in their judgement, to be able to enter the runway, accelarate, become airborne and at least 6000 feet from the threshold before the arriving aircraft crosses the threshold.These factors include:aircraft sizespeed approching the holding pointwhether the aircraft is locally/nationally basedinternational operatorcommand of Englishand of course the prevailing weather conditions, poor weather more spaceFrom my experience, (and assuming the ATC authority allows the use of discretionary take-off and landing clearances as permitted by ICAO), with a medium or heavy jet approaching a three mile final, a contoller would probaly clear a B737/A320 type approaching the holding point for an immediate take-off. I wouldn't attempt it with a B747/A340 types, especially if they were staionary at the holding point. Another issue in tight situations is the effect of the jet blast of the departing aircraft on the arrival. Land light and medium weight category aircraft do not like getting too close behind deaprting B747/A340/B777 types. So in the case of the heavies, I would be looking at five miles. Always do the sums, if your TCAS indicates that a landing jet aircaft is three miles out, he is going to be over the threshold in around 90 seconds, which means that in that time you have to enter the runway, accelarate, and become airborne before he crosses the threshold for the standard to be met. It's tight but can be and is done.Neil

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