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Sids, Stars and Approaches

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Can anyone tell me in detail how pilots in real world use Sids, Stars and Approaches. I've used them in a while but im afraid im doing it wrong. Do you add it on the inital flight plan? Do you ask atc for clearance to use them in flight? Do atc send you instruction to use certain Sid and Star?Thanxpluto1168(kelvin)

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This really is a post for FLIGHT PLAN forum rather than PIC767, but... hey...Wow! You've asked a mouthful there - but I'm in sporting mood so, I'll try to answer you - at least with what I do when flight planning... can't say what real world pilots do, but my guess is they get ops to do it :)1. In my books, I will always file a flight plan with the most appropriate SID & STAR, if I have them on board. Obviously this depends on which runway is active on departure, and then which direction my flight is headed (N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW). If you do a little decifering, it ain't that hard to figure out.2. For the STAR, I can ring up on ACARS what the current winds are and what the ACTIVE runway MAY be... if it changes, np, I refile with new STAR info.My thinking is: if I file with a SID & STAR, ATC knows that I have taken the time to f/p my route.

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I fly 767 in the real world and here is how it works.Your flight plan is filed by dispatch incuding the SID and STAR that results in the longest routing. This is for fuel planning purposes so that if you get the longest routing you'll have enough gas on board. When you pick up the ATIS and determine your departure runway, you choose the SID that gets you from the runway to your route. Often this can change again when you get your IFR clearance, but at airports with multiple runway/sid/routing combinations, they often give the SID in the ATIS (Paris, as an example).For STARs, again, you pick up the arrival runway and usually choose the STAR that gets you from your route to the instrument approach for that runway. That's for planning purposes. ATC will then clear you for the STAR sometime before top of descent. All of this is subject to change at any time by ATC, depending on traffic and it can get pretty busy punching FMC CDU keys coping with all the changes.Hope this helps.

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Thanx for the reply its much clearer now that i know what pilots do in real world. But with current ATC from FS2002 it seems kinda incompatible to say since they don't announce which sid and star to use. They also don't clear you for the sid and star. They just tell you which direction to turn and to decent to a certain altitude. Hope this get fixed in FS2004 or any addon ATC.Thanx again,pluto1168(Kelvin)

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Hi Kelvin,You have had some good answers here but I don't know that it helps with *your* flying because you appear to be using the default FS ATC.Take CVA339's advice and fly VATSIM, then you *do* need those SIDs & STARs and you get proper ATC ;) There was a discussion on the Vatsim ng recently about Fps and SID/STARs so I was interested in Viadirect's answer from the rw.The US seem to think SID/STARs should *not* be included in the FP because they say you do not know which ones until they are given by clearance or approach controllers.I personally disagree with this. If you include them it shows you have checked prevailing winds at departure and destination so have a good idea what the weather is like; OK on a long flight conditions may have changed at destination but you can easily change the STAR as you near your destination.The other benefit is that if you fly an add-on aircraft you can pre-program the FMC (MCDU) with the SID/STAR and save a bit of workload at the gate or during taxi.I fly in the UK (virtually only) and was taught to include SID & STAR in the FP, it shows the controller that:-a) You know what SID/STARs are :-):( You have the charts to fly themc)Your flight plan is probably good because you have taken the trouble to research the SID/STARs.SID/STARs make a controllers life so much easier, for clearance he only need confirm your FP and once airborne he knows where you are, where you are going and at what altitude. He does not have to waste time giving you vectors out of the airport TMA.More importantly at the arrival airport again the approach controller knows where you are and where you are going, at the most he only need give you altitude and/or speed rstrictions for traffic seperation.In Europe, unlike the US, SID & STARs are usually linked to specific runways so once on the STAR both you and the controller know which runway you are using so radio communication is minimised, you only need be given 'cleared to land; or 'number two in the line'.I hope this helps give you a bit more detail on SID/STARs and how they are used in on-line flying.If you do take your simming seriously consider joining VATSIM and enjoy real people controlling you, you'll never want to go back to FS ATC :-)Two things to note though, please do not use a major event as your first on-line flight, get some training and experience first; remember on-line there is no pause button or 'I'll just do that again'.Second, on-line flying is very addictive :-)Rgds

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Regarding flying in the US.I have no clue how they do it real world.. However - if you have the ability - file a DP (Departure Procedure - no "SID's" in the US).If you filed the wrong one you should be assigned the proper one.If you are unable to accept the new one you will be given a different departure clearance again.Example:At Los Angeles, Aircraft flying to somewhere in the NW generally file the Gorman2 departure and Avenal transition (GMN2.AVE).After 2100 Local the GMN2 is no longer used due to noise abatement so it would be replaced by the VTU2.RZS. In the real world I believe ATC would just read back the clearance with the ammendments - however on VATSIM we have no clue if people have all vharts (if any) so we ask.Dialog:ACA301: Delivery good evening ACA301 with you Terminal 2 IFR to Vancouver as filed (GMN2.AVE J189 SEA PAE.ACCORD1)DEL: ACA301 good evening the Gorman 2 departure is no longer valid after 2100 Local, can you accept the Ventura Two departure (VTU2)?If answer is YES thenDEL: ACA301 is cleared to the Vancouver International airport via the Ventura 2 Departure San Marcus Transition direct Avenal, then as filed......If anwer is NO thenDEL: ACA301 is cleared to the Vancouver International airport via after departure fly runway heading, expect vectors to San Marcus direct Avenal, then as filed......See - there's always a way to work it out.Best bet - file a DP, it shows that you at least took the time to "try" and plan your flight.Ian Elchitz

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Hi guys,All this is very interesting, but there are a lot of scenarios as there are countries...I mostly fly in europe, and quite often in the US.As far as I am concerned, as previously explained by "Via Direct", you need to incli=ude those in your FPL, cause, in europe, the CFMU as changed a couples of years ago, and you can't include in your flight plan any "direct" to waypoints. It means for example the following:LSGG DJL 1N um633 xxx um602 xxx sovat 3D EGKB.After the flight plan is files and you get the title ack, it is the acknoweldgment from the CFMU in Bruxelles, you will be abble to read the final route, cause the IFPS may do so with out any notice.On the major airport, and specialy in Paris LFPG and LFPO, they will indicate in the ATIS the number of the SID and STARS. In 90% you will be radar vectored, on departure as well as for arrival.As the french airspace is always changing, cause it is a small one, and the first to be flown for the transatlantic flights comming back in central europe, we start to find more and more RNAV SIDS and STARS, wich is good and simple. All this is going with the new regulations, RVSM, RNAV, and radio 8.33 MHZ, and more...When I flew in the us, We were always radar vectored on departure and arrival. Miami was giving me radar vector for a VOR aprroach in Naples, 200 NM further.In england, they start to do so also, specialy in the London TMA which is often over crowded.Cpt Cyrille de Lattre

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Thank you for your replies I'll try vatsim.thankspluto1168

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Hi I would LOVE to get involved with vatsim but am wary for making a mess. Is it possible to listen in so as to try and feel more comfortable prior to getting on board? FLY SAFELYwings737

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VATSIM and online flying addictive?Most people have no clue on what they are missing Vulcan! :)Regards,Steve Dra (a.k.a on VATSIM as DAL1068)

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Hey Wings,Go here http://www.vatsim.netOn the left you'll see a Software linkGet Roger WilcoGoto the Other Software link on the VATSIM page and get the program called ServInfo.When they are installed, you can use the Roger Wilco tab on ServInfo to see all the radio channels online. You can join any one of them and listen to the ATC comms.You can also click the Controllers tab and click on a controller. This will bring up an info box on that controller with an option to join his Roger Wilco Channel.Just listen for a while and you will be wanting Sqwawkbox next, to join in on the fray! :)Regards,Steve Dra

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Hehe, yeah.But it does get lonely at times. Pretty sad to be at KATL with one other plane an no controllers. :(Thank goodness for ServInfo, so at least I can see where there is some people flying in the world! :)Regards,Steve Dra

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Stevegrateful thanks for your efforts. I assume that I need to register with UK vatsim in order to listen in to the UK sites. Currently I am told no joining for UK sites. At least I can listen in to other. Many thanks FLY SAFELYwings737

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Wings,No Joining UK Sites? You mean to say that they have closed out any additional memberships?If that is the case, and maybe I heard wrong, you can join just about anywhere and then fly just about anywhere, at least for US/Western Europe activity.WS(kewr)

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HiI failed to make myself clear my apologies. What I was trying to say was that I am able to listen in for other sites around the world but was unable to "join" (RW) even as an observer in UK sites. Is this normal? or does it require for me to get an ID? FLY SAFELYwings737

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