RANT MODE = 1

[ryanbatc]

FSNext ATC needs to be improved badly, here's why:VATSIM doesn't cut it. You'll be lucky if you get ATC coverage along your route of flight. You'll be really lucky if you get someone with voice. You'll be extremely lucky if you get to talk to a controller all the way to your destination - without having to squawk 1200 between ARTCC's!!!!Or much worse, the only controller at your destination leaves you and the one only other pilot in a huge area of airspace all alone before you get down!!!GRRRR!!!VATSIM has its moments, but FSNext needs a major ATC upgrade so we don't have to rely on VATSIM to provide ATC services.Not to mention, I downgraded to FS9 just to play on VATSIM, yet it fails me again.Maybe next time I'll fly patterns at ORD, at least I'd get continuous ATC coverage....sheesh

[michal]

>so we don't have to rely on VATSIM to provide ATC services.You don't have to depend on VATSIM today. You sound like you just woke up from a 5 year hibernation and have no clue what ATC alternatives are available. Michael J.http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9320/apollo17vf7.jpg

[Guest UlfB]

Hi,Thanks for sharing! I'll avoid vatsim. How much do you have to pay for flying online on vatsim? Must be a lot since your'e so upset.Ulf B

[ryanbatc]

Of course we don't have to use it now, but if anyone read the blogs you'll realize that MS wants to go to an online environment for ATC, or at least that's what I read when FSX came out. And VATSIM just irks me sometimes, there's not a whole lot of traffic even at major airports. Yes, I know of the alternative, like RC....but it still doesn't add features that would make FS more realistic.

[Guest UlfB]

ryanbatcund,Do you realise that your'e actually complaining about a something that vatsim gave you for free? Please...Ulf B

[scoob]

ranting on a 100% free group run by 100% volunteers is VERY poor form.how about this ... you design a ATC network, set up the free server time (connections, programs and disks), get volunteers to train and act as ATC and ask folks to join your world wide simulation for 100% coverage of the 100% of the time. (by the way ... how many controllers would that be ... the fact being there are not enough real-world controllers, how could we get more than that as volunteers?!)or, you could volunteer your time and take the training courses to become become VATSIM ATC controller so there are more controllers.Rant Mode = 0--

[ryanbatc]

sweet, another 2-forum user ;)Yes, I realize I'm ranting about a free organization.

[Guest UlfB]

>Yes, I realize I'm ranting about a free organization.Ok. If you spent 200 hours to be able to give a present to a friend, how would you consider your friends behaviour if he came back to you and said "GRRRR, your gift is pretty much worthless!"`???Ulf B

[vgbaron]

>>Yes, I realize I'm ranting about a free organization.>>Ok. If you spent 200 hours to be able to give a present to a>friend, how would you consider your friends behaviour if he>came back to you and said "GRRRR, your gift is pretty much>worthless!"`???>>Ulf BWhen I give someone a gift, I do it for me not to get approval from the recipient. If they dojn't appreciate the gift, so be it. I may or may not give them another depending on MY needs not my need for their approval.Frankly, I agree with Ryan - "FOR ME" Vatsim is a PITA and not worth the effort. I know several other folks who have exactly the opposite feeling and don't enjoy flying without it. But I will darn well complain about something I don't like whether it's free or not and if some folks who like Vatsim have thin skins - so be it - welcome to reality.Just MHO,VicQ6600 G0 CPU 2.4 o/c 3.65Evga 680i A1 with P31 BIOS 2G XP2-8500 DDR2 1066FSB Mushkin 996535 RAM 5-5-4-12-2T320G 7200 HD partitioned for XP/Vista/Programs 2 - 74G Raptors in RAID0 500G 7200 HD for backup SATA DVD burner Evga 8800GTS 640 PCIx XG 174.74 702/1620/792Kandalf LCS case w/ built in liquid cooling 850W Thermaltake power supplyVisit the Virtual Pilot's Centerwww.flightadventures.comhttp://www.hifisim.com/banners/hifi-supporter-sigbanner.jpg

[michal]

>Frankly, I agree with Ryan - "FOR ME" Vatsim is a PITA and not>worth the effort. You clearly have right to this opinion. But then there are RC, Voxatc, so clearly there are other choices. Ryan clearly is dissatisfied with all of them. As someone who signs "licensed pilot" should appreciate enormous challenges in replicating true ATC environment. This in itself is a simulator in its own right with plenty of artificial intelligence built in. Some people (myself included) are for example turned off by the computer-like speech in such stand-alone programs, for us it kills "being there" feel. In short I do not expect breakthroughs in this area anytime soon, regardless in which direction simulated ATC goes. So instead of complaining for the sake of complaining - I would either fly with no ATC or pick the best alternative and be happy with it.Michael J.http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9320/apollo17vf7.jpg

[aerdt]

I have to agree to some extend with the original poster.VATSIM is primarily geared towards the heavies, but are pretty useless for GA flights, because a large amount (if not most) of areas are just not covered by a human operator.Radar Contact doesn't do VFR and also don't do ground traffic. VoxATC costs more than the sim itself without any useful variations of voices.A great combination would be a combination of AI ATC and online (human) ATC.Currently, the most comprehensive ATC solution (VFR/IFR) is for me the default ATC. Radar Contact holds the crown for IFR traffic; VoxATC is great for people to like the actual vocal interaction. But both systems (as well as online ATC) have some serious drawbacks when it comes to an all-around "as real as it gets" simulation experience.With a few tweaks here and there, FSvNext ATC could make the dream of an almost complete ATC simulation happening. All we would need is a full SID/STAR simulation, FSS stations, interactive runway lighting, weather, emergencies, some AI improvements and more variations with the voices. It seems like a lot ask for, but I don't think it's impossible to realize.Pat

[Guest UlfB]

Vic,If you have problems with a specific add on or service, what would you do? You would go over to the support forum and post on your issue, wouldn't you? I guess that you would post about your experience about to few air controllers and ask a question if this is normal or if you fly on line at hours when the number of controllers are low. If you post about your findings and ask questions about your problem, instead of accusations, you'll be able to inform the community in a constructive way.And if you would post here on the vatsim forum, expressing that there are to few controllers on line? What could be an answer be to your question? Maybe: Vatsim naturally want more controllers and you are welcome to join as an air controller.I admit that I know very little about Vatsim and how the organization works, but to me it seems to based on none-payed members acting as air controllers. And the OP is complaining about the fact that there are to few people acting as controllers. Is the OP acting as a controller? Are you? I'm not. Vatsim won't be better than the community (incl ryanbatcund, you and me) allows it to be.Ulf B

[Guest Fortress]

I generally enjoy VATSIM but there are days when I can take it or leave it. But to me it's so much more than just a simulated ATC environment; it also allows me to chat with long-held friends that I've never once met. So, I really don't understand this thread. Whether it be free or not, whether there are alternative or not... what is the point of complaining about VATSIM? What does the OP expect to happen?There's only one for the OP to actively change things, and that's to get off his backside and join in. The more GA aircraft there are, the more controllers who want this kind of traffic will be attracted to join, and the more GA aircraft there'll be ... etc etc etc.One things for sure, I can't see MS ever developing a simulated ATC environment as good as VATSIM can provide and then bundling it for free with FS.Cheers,Paulhttp://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/temp/avsim.gifConcorde Training Captainwww.bavirtual.co.uk

[Krister]

Just to add, VERY seldom do I fly on VATSIM without radar coverage the whole way and at least tower and approached manned. Nope, I can

[Guest ThurstonHowell]

Getting the most out of VATSIM (or any other multiplayer ATC environment) really depends on observing some basic "best practices".1. Most VATSIM controllers have real 9-5 jobs (or school), and most VATSIM controllers operate in the FIR or ARTCC where they are resident. People are comfortable with the familiar. We like to control where we live because attempting to get certified half a world away introduces potential time, language and procedural hurdles.2. Most controllers try to log on during periods of peak activity. Controlling your zone at 0600 for 1 or 2 high-alt transients might provide some personal satisfaction but it is not challenging. Your family also may not understand why you're abandoning them at the breakfast table to eat your Fruit Loops in front of the computer. Controlling the same zone at 2000 is going to be a different story though, plus you get the benefit of having spent mealtime with the family before turning them into Flight Sim widows.3. To maximize your chances of having ATC along your planned route, plan your transit to occur between 1900-2300 (of that ARTCC/FIR's local time!) on weeknights, or 1500-2300 on weekends. It's not the controller's responsibility to deprive themselves of sleep so we have somebody to talk to. The more sensible thing is to plan your route to hit areas closest to their times of peak activity.4. Recognise that if there is a large difference (say 5+ hours) between your time zone and the ARTCC/FIR time zone, you are never going to see ATC unless you manage to fly through that zone during the local weekend afternoon/evening.In an ideal world, VATSIM would have some way of signalling FS's native ATC to take over in an uncontrolled zone, and (to avoid the hassle of trying to coordinate everyone's AI ATC) to see MP aircraft but only issue instructions to the local client's human aircraft. But I don't think the FS9/FSX multiplayer API is at all structured to handle that sort of activity.