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philbrown

RNAV Departure Procedures in the US

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Looking on FlightAware, I see that Delta 100 from KATL to LEBL is planned as flying the UGAAA2 departure. Alot of time when I've looked at DP charts from the US, they state that you will be vectored by ATC. Will you also be vectored if you file an RNAV DP, or will you be expected to follow it like SID's in Europe (assuming no vectors for traffic)?Just wondering how best to plan this flight for use with Radar Contact - with a DP that I have to follow, or with RC giving me vectors to my first point?

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If ATC wants to vector you instead of a complete RNAV departure they will change your flightplan upon clearance and tell you to disregard whatever DP you filed.

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>If ATC wants to vector you instead of a complete RNAV>departure they will change your flightplan upon clearance and>tell you to disregard whatever DP you filed.Not necessarily. Just because ATC might give you a radar vector doesn't mean they will cancel a whole DP. They might vector you to a point further along than the initial point of the DP but they will rarely change a STAR/SID if it is the currently active one in use.

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Atlanta is a bit different with all those parallel runways several of which are simultaneously active. If you are taking off to the west, note that the runways are split 2 or 3 of 5 for turning direction. RC will not note this or take into account the other runways.The default rule for RC is that if your first waypoint is within 30 nm of the airport center, you will get a fly as filed on your take-off clearance and you do your own navigation. (There is a preflight option to force your own navigation if you wish when the first waypoint is beyond 30 nm.) If your wind component is high enough so AI will take off to the west, then request of GND control an appropriate runway in the "upper" half or "lower" half using respectively MPASS or FUTBL as the first waypoint in your plan, then the appropriate cornering waypoints to turn eastbound adding HYZMN for a northerly turn from the southern three all going to the common UGAAA waypoint.If you are taking off eastbound note that all there are waypoints around 6 miles from the end of each runway so you will still navigate on your own.If you want vectors, it would be a bit messy but just make the first waypoint UAGGG followed by ATHENS (if appropriate). RC will give you an initial heading when you get take-off clearance followed by vectors to line you up to take up your own navigation to UAGGG.Keep in mind that RC does not have a SID/DP or STAR database. It is up to your planner to include them in your FS flight plan. Most flight planners when exporting to an FMC and FS plan format on building the waypoint grid (which you can edit) convert the departure or arrival procedure to its individual waypoints.If you are using a complex model aircraft with FMC such as a PMDG or LDS, then use your planner to export to the FMC and FS at the same time. In the case of the PMDG FMC go to INDEX/NAVDATA/FLIGHTPLANS and scroll the lists to get the desired plan up. LSK the plan name to put it in the scratchpad. Go to the RTE page and LSK CO_ROUTE and the plan will load into the FMC for activation and execution. Now load the exported FS9 plan into RC and you have synchronized data with your FMC should you set it up to do your own nav under RC.If you want to use your FMC database for navigation, just include in your FS plan waypoints outside of the 30 nm boundary that are also in the FMC database so RC can expect you to go there. On the RC preflight Controller page you can check ALTITUDE RESTRICTIONS (only) for the departure airport to let RC navigate the early part of the SID by using your FMC database waypoints. Make sure your planner database and FMC database have close entries for waypoint data.I suggest you look at the tutorial flights and also the manual concentrating on the options in the controller page. There are also extended discussions of RC options for departure and arrival in the manual.Above all remember it is your responsibility to navigate your aircraft to comply with ATC. ATC is not bound to what is in your FMC database and can deviate from a published departure or arrival procedure as necessary.To see all of the departure and arrival procedures for any FAA airport go to flightaware.com, enter the ICAI ID such as KATL, click on Resources, and then download the terminal procedure bundled .pdf file. You can then using a .pdf reader such as Acrobat to browse the procedure plates and instructions of interest.(More than you wanted to know but I wanted to show you this in context and you did mention RC.)

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Thanks for the replies. I have been using Radar Contact for a good few years now, and am familiar with its workings and how to use SIDS. Living in the UK, I was just curious as to how the procedures are used in the US. I was under the impression that everything went to the departure controller and was assigned vectors to the first waypoint. Seems not though.

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I think it is safe to say that it is up to the controllers based on congestion and outgoing direction of flight route dispersal.Each airport has its own ATC SOPs to follow as necessary.Being in the UK, the close proximity of London area airports I believe results in tight static procedures requiring horizontal and vertical separation plus all of the noise reduction procedures mandated. Other areas may allow more flexibility in departure offering vectored short-cuts when traffic allows. The same is true here.This all being said, KATL most SIDS require RNAV or GPS which are static. However there is only one vectored SID, ATLANTA FIVE where aircraft are vectored to the closest navaid for their direction of departure. I would imagine this is to accommodate non-RNAV equipped aircraft of generally smaller service that might use KATL.Similarly The are only three STARs that accommodate vectoring to an IAP for LOC intersect. The majority of STARS require RNAV that brings them to the IAF of an IAP.I think it might be the case that aircraft requiring vectors are an exception that must adhere to certain time slots of arrival and departure. There are other airports within a suitable range that can probably offer better accommodation.A more common airport arrangement is KMSP, Minneapolis, Minnesota. At this stage RNAV departures are few and most are vectored. This is still quite a busy airport and has two long parallels plus a third one-way runway used as a third active when weather allows. KMSP does have some RNAV/FMS IAPs and STARs where vectoring is not used but separation is still required. Many aircraft here still take vectors.One thing to consider is that I believe for final is that aircraft still monitor raw data (LOC and VOR) for common waypoints as a cross check.So I guess the only answer to your question is "It depends . . .) :)

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Thanks for the insight Ron. A lot like the UK then, where we have procedures, but aircraft are vectored most of the time (especially in the London area) for separation purposes.I didn't know about the RNAV arrival procedures though. Whilst one or two do exist here, they are only used for testing, and most aircraft file the STAR which only takes them to the hold. After that it has to be vectors to get them to the ILS, regardless of the traffic levels.

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Major airports here are adding RNAV procedures as design and testing schedules allow. The FAA has deemed RNAV safe down to minimums. Both STARs and IAPs are being published.Have you browsed the forums over on Flightaware? They have quite a bit of information with input from r/w pilots frequently.

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I think there may be some confusionn here. In the UK STARs terminatate in holds which serve all runways and directions. In the London area it is normal practice to radar vector aircraft from these holds to the extended centre-line of the runway. I believe that it's uncommon for ATC to vector aircraft that are still on the STAR altgough ATC will issue instuctions about height.Most SIDs are noise preferential routes and ATC will not normally divert aircraft from a SID until it's reached 4000ft.As other posters have sad airspace around Londond is very congested and deals wilth approached and de[arture to 5 airports within in 25nm radius - London Heathrow, London Gatwick, London Luton, Lonond Stansted, and London City. That doesn't allow for much flexibility.

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