Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

thepilot

Wilco E-Jets released

Recommended Posts

They're out now. I already heard that first bugs are being reported, so be careful... Regards,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

Thanks for the heads up!Do you have a link to the support forum? I couldn't find any link the Wilco site. Had a look on the Feelthere forums but couldn't find a E-jet series forum.Where did you get the info about bugs being reported?Ulf B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A user in a German forum has noticed some severe Autopilot/Autothrust regulation problems.Roughly translated : "AP doesn't hold altitude in turns. Does a steep turn with 45 deg bank everytime and looses altitude approx. 350 ft. This is not corrected by small pitch increase, but by full thrust, so the aircraft goes through the target altitude with abnormal pitch and overshoots it everytime by 1200 ft. Even worse, it keeps the full power while attempting to get back to the target altitude, now overshooting the speed up to overspeed. Bank limitation seems to dampen the effect, but this is not applicable for LOC intercept.So it is apparently even more noticeable when the AP works with 45 deg bank during LOC intercept, thus unable to stabilize GS".Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

> ... in a German forum ...Which one please?(I do believe you :), I'm just curious if there is more info there).Cheers,Martin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,Just a tough...In RL ... with a bank angle of 45

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No airliner does 45 degree turns except in an emergency and if a 45 degree turn is commanded, the autopilot shouldn't be engaged at all. A 45 degree turn requires significant backpressure on the yoke, NOT, small trim inputs, to compensate for the loss of vertical component of lift. To maintain a 45 degree bank and no loss of altitude will require more thrust AND backpressure on the yoke...it is actually a pretty aerobatic maneuver...try it in a Cessna 172 sometime, but you will never experience it in a commerical aircraft (hopefully).AND then the complaint is that the aircraft can't capture the localizer in a 45 degree bank??? Why not complain that the aircraft won't hold the glideslope while inverted at 500kts? :-lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The way I read it is that it's the autopilot that commanded a 45 degree bank (i.e. completely unrealistic AP behaviour) while at level flight to make a turn and then did the same during approach when intercepting the localizer.This problem reminds me of the all too common issue I had with the Wilco Airbus that would command -6000fpm descent rates in managed descent and 45 degree bank commanded by their 737 autopilot (that got fixed many months after the initial release) literally throwing the plane out of the sky as a result.Either way, I decided to give this plane a try, so I'll see if I can reproduce those problems tonight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder why so obvious problems like maintaining altitude are not fixed before a release. Seems like they didn't spend too much attention to their beta testers (if they had any...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Mike,>> AND then the complaint is that the aircraft can't capture the localizer in a 45 degree bank??? Hmmm. I have read through the report again and found just this complaint :An Autopilot commanding 45 deg bank, with all the nasty follow-ups, if the Autopilot/Autothrust regulation tries to (over)compensate it.Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometimes those obvious problems are user hardware related. I remember the aforementioned 737 not being able to maintain level flight at 2x and 4x acceleration on my quite old and slow test rig (an ancient P4 3.06Ghz), while it performed flawlessly at these speed settings on my main machine (C2Q @ 3,6Ghz). Sometimes these things can't be caught in a limited beta-test, especially if they are hardware and not necessarily software related (I imagine most developers don't have a testing base the size of Microsoft or nvidia, and even then, look at their results *cough* drivers *cough* Vista *cough*).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's why a premature release engaging the paying involuntary "beta testers" is so important ;-)I'm very greatful to those buying a version 1.0 aircraft and working with the developers to get the aircraft up to payware standard. I avoid buying version 1.0 aircraft, but with some exceptions depending on the reputation of the developer and if you are allowed a refund.Thanks for your information on the E-jets series.Ulf B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, here are my initial observations based on a very short flight (EPKK->EPWA) WITHOUT a thorough read through the manual, keep that in mind.The autopilot DOES command extreme bank angles. It does not anticipate that it will have to make a turn and thus instead of doing it gradually (see Level-D or PMDG), it makes sharp, extreme turns at the last minute and then tries to compensate for it. I have not however observed a significant deviation in the altitude at level flight though.The problem is much more profound during descent/approach phase, as the descent path becomes quite steep with an associated increase in airspeed, which can prove dangerous when capturing the localizer.I had a problem with the TOD calculation, but I'm blaming this on user error for now.I tried to do an autoland, the autopilot followed the localizer accurately and appeared to capture the glideslope, albeit it did not command the plane to descend (probably an error on my part, but I'm not quite sure about that). Upon disconnecting the AP, I tried to capture the glideslope again, doing so succesfully, however the plane descended so rapidly, that this attempt ended in a rather spectacular crash well short of the runway (again, I'm hedging all bets on my own user errors here though).So there you have it, my quick test flight. I'll give it a thorough trashing over the weekend, once I familiarise myself with all the procedures and then take another stab at an autoland.In terms of performance, I was pleasantly surprised, the frames were excellent throughout all phases of the flight. The gauges are crisp and well designed and the external model appears to be accurate. So that's it from me for now :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had serious problems with capturing the GS too. 2,500ft set on the PFD for the capture, all was well, until I met some crosswinds on approach to 27L at Heathrow.The plane passed 2,500ft still descending and the GS was captured, then realized that it had passed 2,500ft, so it compensated that with nose up, and extra thrust, then it passed 2,500ft on the climb, and kept climbing and accelerating!Had to disengage the AP, and try and fly in thick cloud, to capture the GS again. Once on it, it didn't stay there, the rate of decent was much higher than the 3 degrees, and without any intervention, it would have smashed into Myrtle Avenue!Also had a CTD on the 1st go, was to go with playing with the Electrics once the engines were online, and after shutting down the APU.Also for some reason, the HON1Y dep from EGCC, and BNN3A (now 4A) all had altitude constraints of 2,000ft. I'll try and load the latest AIRAC to see if that rectifies it.Other than that, she's a fine aircraft, loving some aspects of the E-Jet, such as the Vertical Profile, that's pretty cool, and also some aspects of the MFD. Model and sounds seem pretty accurate to me!As an avid EMB flyer, this, with some typical Wilco tweaking, will be a fine addition to the fleet, and I look forward to flying her time and time again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope, wouldn't touch it with a 10 meter pole! :-lolMike T.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>Nope, wouldn't touch it with a 10 meter pole! :-lol>>Mike T.Maybe you'll regret that statement. Might end up as a very good aircraft, just like the PMDG 747 and LevelD finally did ;-)ULf B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I might, I just might...oh wait, Wilco Publishing, never mind, I won't! :-lolQuite frankly it is sacreligious to mention PMDG and LevelD in the same breath as Wilco / Feelthere. No, the PMDG and Level D offerings weren't perfect at first but they evolved into works of art, against which all other aircraft are measured. Wilco / Feelthere pumps out aircraft, half baked, half hearted and half tested every few months and they have become the poster children for "quality is more desirable than quantity". Wilco, like Sub-Lieutenant Sim (he got a demotion), have enourmous talent, but just can't seem to get over the hump to release groundbreaking products. To steal a quote from "A Knight's Tale". "Sir Wilco, you have been measured, you have been weighed, and you have been found wanting". :-lol.Willing to bet a beer in the winners place of choice on that regret thingie? :-)Warmest regards,Mike T.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>poster children for "quality is more desirable than quantity".> meant that the other way no? :-hah RegardsMark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would agree with you insofar as Wilco's involvement is concerned, not at all impressed. Never have been. They should never have made the outlandish claims about the 'PIC' brand that they did prior to the Airbus release.In saying that, let's not forget that the same development group bought us the 737PIC and the ERJ/Legacy, both of which matured fairly quickly into respectable 2nd tier offerings. (1st tier being those rare releases with failures modelled and a high level of immersion thanks to sound, VC modelling, etc)It has been stated that the feelthere team consists of a number of teams of developers, not everyone works on all aircraft.Based on the fact that the Legacy is among my favourite aircraft to fly, I'm more than prepared to give the E-Jet a fair hearing. Sure I don't expect it to be 1st tier, but I can live with that. I suspect if more people could live with it, we'd all be a lot happier!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mark:And that's what has my head scratching! The 737PIC and the ERJ PIC are solid releases. I have them both and they are really good products even now. I would have thought that from that standpoint they would have taken the newest aircraft to a stratosphereic level, but instead they pulled the throttles back and performed a very good impression of "controlled flight into terrain" :-)Anothing thing that get's my goat is affixing the hallowed PIC moniker to their latest batch of "products" When most who are in the know think of the "PIC" they think back to the groundbreaking 767 PIC...Wilco has since made the PIC name pretty worthless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad to see we're 'on the same page' in many respects Mike!The E-Jet is apparently the work of the same team that did the ERJ and Legacy, which gives me hope of at least a similar standard of add-on. There have been suggestions that this is their most complex work yet, so there is some hope of an evolution as well.Tell you what, I'll have the thing on my machine in about 6 or 7 hours, and I'll report back here once I've had a chance to fly. if I'm disappointed, then I'll owe YOU a beer. :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>I wonder why so obvious problems like maintaining altitude>are not fixed before a release. >Seems like they didn't spend too much attention to their beta>testers (if they had any...)This is a problem with most of their past releases. They (he?) never took the time to fix FDE/Autopilot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>Glad to see we're 'on the same page' in many respects Mike!>>The E-Jet is apparently the work of the same team that did the>ERJ and Legacy, which gives me hope of at least a similar>standard of add-on. There have been suggestions that this is>their most complex work yet, so there is some hope of an>evolution as well.>>Tell you what, I'll have the thing on my machine in about 6 or>7 hours, and I'll report back here once I've had a chance to>fly. if I'm disappointed, then I'll owe YOU a beer. :-)ERJ, Legacy, CitationX still have quite similar FDE/Autopilot behavior and they all tend to overshoot/fail in the same configs the same way (with no autothrottle though). But they are all still fun to fly, I'm just curious if anyone tried to modify the air files for any of those?Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>ERJ, Legacy, CitationX still have quite similar FDE/Autopilot>behavior and they all tend to overshoot/fail in the same>configs the same way (with no autothrottle though). But they>are all still fun to fly, I'm just curious if anyone tried to>modify the air files for any of those?>>Thanks.Yeah, like Bob Scott did for the PSS A-330 and 340 models. That would be nice if somebody could make the feelThere E-170 more stable during descents.Ulf B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites