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jfri

What would happen if

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I'm a flightsimmer using FS9 and I find it easy to take off in a C172 and fly a pattern and land the plane in one piece. I prefer the F1 C172. I'm curious about what would likely happen in if I would enter a real C172 at the end of the runway with engines running and try flying a pattern in real life doing as best as I can? In FS9 I immidiately apply full throttle. Would that kill the engine? From FS9 I would expect the plane to tend to turn to left and I would try to correct with some right rudder pedal. Is thast likely to keep mr on the runway? What would I experience in real life and how bad would this go? Would I be able to takeoff? I would look at the speed and push forward if it drops to low. Woulld this end in disaster? If so when how and why. Keep in mind that I'm aware that FS differ from reallife. For example I have read that takeoff behaves differently than reallife as do turbulence. But assume good weather and calm winds. I might mention that I have been in real C152 in trial lesson and turned the yoke left and right and pulled it back and forward and the plane behaved as I expected so I suspect thing wouldm't go bad in the cruising phase.

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I'm a flightsimmer using FS9 and I find it easy to take off in a C172 and fly a pattern and land the plane in one piece. I prefer the F1 C172. I'm curious about what would likely happen in if I would enter a real C172 at the end of the runway with engines running and try flying a pattern in real life doing as best as I can? In FS9 I immidiately apply full throttle. Would that kill the engine? From FS9 I would expect the plane to tend to turn to left and I would try to correct with some right rudder pedal. Is thast likely to keep mr on the runway? What would I experience in real life and how bad would this go? Would I be able to takeoff? I would look at the speed and push forward if it drops to low. Woulld this end in disaster? If so when how and why. Keep in mind that I'm aware that FS differ from reallife. For example I have read that takeoff behaves differently than reallife as do turbulence. But assume good weather and calm winds. I might mention that I have been in real C152 in trial lesson and turned the yoke left and right and pulled it back and forward and the plane behaved as I expected so I suspect thing wouldm't go bad in the cruising phase.
A few years ago as a Father's Day gift, my daughter gave me an introductory flight at a local flying school (Wright Flyers at KSAT). I sat in the left seat, taxied a brand new C-172 out to the runway, took off, leveled off, flew over downtown San Antonio, returned, flew a pattern, and landed. The instructor mostly told me things like when to level off and start my turns in the pattern. I found it MUCH easier to judge distance, altitude, etc. than in the sim. I believe that I could have done it alone.I knew exactly where to find things on the instrument panel and what to expect when I looked at the gauges. Using the rudder during takeoff is for sure different than the sim, but knowing what to expect and what to do about it (from reading posts from RW pilots on these forums) made it managable. Trimming is much different also.I think that you could do it too. If you really want to find out, call a school and ask if you can buy such a flight. It is an experience that I won't forget.R-

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I have No real world flying experience but I always thought it shouldn't be too difficult for someone with enough flightsim experience, as long as there's someone next to you to guide you / takeover when it's needed. If you are there alone... it may be a bit like driving when you've had a few drinks... as long as nothing unexpected happens you're OK but you're in trouble otherwise.Allard.

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With no experience in an actual aircraft, it's the unexpected things that will kill you.

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I believe it is possible for a non pilot with extensive sim experience with PMDG and Level-D models and systems, to handle a real aircraft, at least in normal weather conditions. As stated, there have been simmers you have had time in Level-D sims and have done just fine. I myself have flown at the controls of a Mustang, and AT-6, performed aerobatics and landed, which I don't think I could have done as well if at all without my sim experience. Here's another question in the same vane. Which do you think would do better at the controls of an airliner, A simmer with extensive experience in a complex model like the PMDG 747, MD-11 or LDS-767, or a private pilot flying Cessna's with no experience at all in Jets (or their systems) or sims of any type?Edit: just realized I posted this in the wrong thread! There is a similar one going on in the FSX forum right now, that was the thread I meant to post this.!

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Since you've been in a real Cessna for a flight, you will be aware that flying a sim is 'the same but different'. The truth is you probably could take a Cessna up and around on a circuit and back down on your own. It probably wouldn't be the prettiest and most well-coordinated circuit ever flown, but you'd certainly manage it providing the sound, smells, sights and sounds etc didn't overwhelm your senses. Cessnas of the 152 and 172 variety are essentially training aircraft, so they are designed to be forgiving when it comes to stability, reluctance to spin, and resilience to hard landings, excessive control inputs etc. Where things would get sloppy is in the 'muscle memory' you have from flying your sim: joysticks - being a lot smaller and with less travel than a typical flight yoke or throttle - engender different movements to those required to move the control surfaces on a real aircraft, and there is not the same level of feel that you get in a real aircraft with a joystick. Even 'force feedback' cannot really emulate it very well, so you'd find yourself having to adjust rapidly to a different amount of movement on the controls.On the other hand, if you have some rudder pedals, they are very similar in size and operation to the real things, so you'd probably be pretty good on those, and if you have a PC yoke rather than a joystick, that would also help. Being familiar with the aircraft in a sim means that you'd be probably good on the instruments though, because you perceive those in exactly the same way in a sim as you do in a real aircraft.If you drive a car, you can equate the comparison to a 'driving game' on a PC or gaming console. Most people who can drive a car perfectly well in real life struggle to even keep a computer racing game car on the track when they first try it, and it might take them two hours or so to adjust to the necessary control inputs required to get around a track. Whereas when driving their car, the level of familiarity with the steering, gears and pedals mean that most people can quite happily carry on a conversation with a passenger whilst driving through a busy town centre, changing gears, stopping and starting, weaving in and out of lanes, observing other road users etc. That's the same level of difference to flying a plane for real and flying one in a sim: you know what you want to do, but doing it well takes practice, and in the same way as getting around a track on a racing game is one thing, doing it well enough to win the race takes time.The only other problem you might encounter is something which initially confuses a lot of people when they learn to fly, and that is: You use the throttle to control climb and descent, and the pitch to control speed. That goes against most people's intuition, which would be to think that the throttle controls the speed and the pitch controls the height.Al

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I knew exactly where to find things on the instrument panel and what to expect when I looked at the gauges. Using the rudder during takeoff is for sure different than the sim, but knowing what to expect and what to do about it (from reading posts from RW pilots on these forums) made it managable. Trimming is much different also.I think that you could do it too. If you really want to find out, call a school and ask if you can buy such a flight. It is an experience that I won't forget.R-
In what way is trim and rudder during takeoff different from the sim?Did you really control a plane during all phases of flight without first having some flight lessons? It seems to me that would mean risk of damaging the plane or getting injured because of some mistake being made which I suppose easely could happen when a non pilot is controlling the plane. Actually sometimes I make mistakes resulting in crash even in FS.From what I know my local flying club can offer a sightseeing tour and a trial lesson. But that only lets you feel the yoke during the cruise phase at least that was the case when I took it.
With no experience in an actual aircraft, it's the unexpected things that will kill you.
I wonder what those unexpected things could be?

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Woulld this end in disaster?
Like I said multiple times it may depend more on your psychological state of mind than on your actual simulation experience. If you were able to keep cool, discipline your mind and not panic you would probably do well. It is one thing to do everything right while sitting in the chair in front of your PC and completely different to repeat the same thing in real aircraft alone. I recall from my early days of training for PPL - it was one thing to do a good landing while your instructor was next to you and quite different than actually do it alone. The psychological gap between simming and real thing is even larger.

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Don't forget the ground school training of how an airplane actually flys...and what can cause it to stop flying. And how manipulating the controls can either save you or kill you. I've never seen 'Rod's' course in FS, so I don't know what he teaches in FS, but you won't be feeling anything like a real aircraft.Unless you've actually been there I don't know how anyone only being a sim pilot in an adverse, or even abnormal circumstance could expect to control and land even a light aircraft.What your eye sees and what the brain interprets are not the same and you will never get that sensation sitting at a computer. It ain't like driving a car and never will be as long as you are in three dimensions.I am not saying for the lucky few it can't happen, but for the majority there would be panic.

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A very, very astute student of FS, and an instructor keeping you and the aircraft well inside your respective envelopes ... can ... produce a successful outcome. However, the opportunities for disaster - even in a C150/152 - are limitless. Considerations include:Departure stalls - caused by - you-name-it - over-rotating, airspeed mismanagement, turning cross-wind, simple distractions, etc.Losing sight of the runway - I actually observed a student get lost on downwind, on her first solo, and land 40 miles away.Approach stalls - increasing flaps from 30 to 40 degrees on an older C150 will bring your airspeed from 70 indicated to about 40 in a couple of seconds if you don't lower the nose significantly and quickly. Finding yourself behind the power curve - not enough available power with flaps extended to overcome your sink rate - usually associated with an angle-of-attack situation. Without some altitude to trade for energy, you will ride that one to the ground. Overshooting final and increasing your bank angle may well result in a stall-spin event that rarely has a happy ending. Confusing the pitch/power relationship on final will have you porpoising all over the sky, possibly terminating with blown tires and a buckled firewall.These are all things that happen to seasoned pilots (watch the arrivals at Oshkosh or Sun n' Fun some time and you'll see this and much, much more. The point is - given the right circumstances and the right assistance, the exceptional FS pilot will be successful. But its a very long shot that even that individual would pilot the airplane to a successful conclusion alone. Not saying it can't be done - just statistically a bad bet. There's a reason for the 20 hours minimum of dual instruction and 20 hours of solo flight (and usually much more) required prior to a PPL check ride.That being said though, I believe the FS pilot has an unquestionable head-start. And as Michael indicated, the right attitude and frame-of-mind will put you another leg-up on the uninitiated when you begin formal training.Regards,Leon

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Agreed. Sim pilots with no experience just would not know what to do to counter those situations in an actual aircraft. Panic woud be my first impression. Then screaming comes to mind.Losing sight of the runway - I actually observed a student get lost on downwind, on her first solo, and land 40 miles away.You gotta be kidding me. Lost on the downwind... :( Did she ever think of looking out the left window before leaving the ATA?

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The only other problem you might encounter is something which initially confuses a lot of people when they learn to fly, and that is: You use the throttle to control climb and descent, and the pitch to control speed. That goes against most people's intuition, which would be to think that the throttle controls the speed and the pitch controls the height.
If I want to head down the runway fast.................I use throttleWhen I want to climb from the runway for takeoff .................. I use the elevator (pitch)If I want to remain in perfect formation with another aircraft, I'll use throttle for small speed changes.What I'm pointing out here; is that the throttle/altitude and pitch for speed "sayings" just don't apply in all cases. While my above scenarios are for takeoff, it is usually the opposite for landing, as you've stated. As to the simmer successfully flying the circuit, with a normal outcome, I'll say no, especially with any kind of crosswind. Things start moving all over the place real fast, and you need reactions built up over time, to respond correctly. I know what it felt like to first solo, and I know what it felt like to be the first test pilot of my experimental/ kitbuilt aircraft which is much higher performance compared to a Cessna 172. There is a real case of "nerves" and anxiety involved, that's offset by making many landings with an instructor, or getting time in a plane that's comparable to one you're going to test fly. Sitting at a computer is far from the nervousness you'll experience if you know that it's you, and only you, that's going to save your life. For the airliner scenario, I'll take the Cessna pilot in the pilot's seat, and the simmer can run the radios.L.Adamson

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Absolutely true story. I was working the line fueling airplanes way back in my college days. The student turned downwind and gradually faded away from the airport. After a few minutes and no radio contact, her instructor launched with a spotter. About an hour into this thing she called the office (no cells back in the day) and gave her location - a small, essentially unused airport. Her instructor and the spotter met her to retrieve the airplane. She would not fly back - even with someone else so a car was sent to pick her up. I do recall she resumed flying - once she settled down sometime later. Leon

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No confidence. I've seen that in pilots before. It's a shame too.When the instructor thinks you're ready to solo you should think you are the best ###### hot pilot in the world. You have to have enough confidence in your training and abilities to at least get the aircraft back to the the airport.

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Absolutely true story. I was working the line fueling airplanes way back in my college days. The student turned downwind and gradually faded away from the airport. After a few minutes and no radio contact, her instructor launched with a spotter. About an hour into this thing she called the office (no cells back in the day) and gave her location - a small, essentially unused airport. Her instructor and the spotter met her to retrieve the airplane. She would not fly back - even with someone else so a car was sent to pick her up. I do recall she resumed flying - once she settled down sometime later. Leon
That doesn't surprise me at all. The number of pilots who've lost the airfield on a first solo is not inconsiderable, even Captain WE Johns, WW1 flyer, instructor and, of course, famous author of the Biggles books recounts having done that, in a semi-autobiographical fashion in his book 'Biggles learns to fly'.I remember having a brief moment of concern when I lost sight of the airfield on my first solo, fortunately I spotted it again, but those of us who fly will know that it's a lot easier than you might think to do that.Al

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Years and years ago I remember my first Into flight.I had a lot of Flightsim experience under my belt at the time.However, if the instructor had the passed out, would I have been able to land the plane?Honestly, it probably would have been a crash landing.Flying in a real 172 "feels" so different from doing it on a desktop computer. That, and the fact the mechanical handling of things like the throttle lever and mixture are things that FS at that time didn't really show (I know the newer versions of FS show the throttle lever better, but I digress).So I recall having to learn how to use the throttle.So I'm just thankful that my instructor way back then didn't pass out... or it would have ended badly I'm sure :( Cheers,

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In FS you SIMULATE a Takeoff, Pattern, Landing. You have not yet experienced a flight envelope yet.The real thing brings you face to face with situations and emotions that you really have never experienced, merely SIMULATED.While it is helpful to have SIMULATED every move it's difficult to describe the emotional and sensory input you will experience.I remember clearly the mixed emotions of joy and fear on my first solo flight. Cleared the ground and the realization set in that my instructor was not right seat and the only good outcome would have to be my doing.This was followed by extreme sense of happiness and feeling of accomplishment as I executed everything that my training had prepared me for. :(

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Approach stalls - increasing flaps from 30 to 40 degrees on an older C150 will bring your airspeed from 70 indicated to about 40 in a couple of seconds if you don't lower the nose significantly and quickly.I remember those. Our school had two that had 40

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A very, very astute student of FS, and an instructor keeping you and the aircraft well inside your respective envelopes ... can ... produce a successful outcome. However, the opportunities for disaster - even in a C150/152 - are limitless. Considerations include:Departure stalls - caused by - you-name-it - over-rotating, airspeed mismanagement, turning cross-wind, simple distractions, etc.Losing sight of the runway - I actually observed a student get lost on downwind, on her first solo, and land 40 miles away.Approach stalls - increasing flaps from 30 to 40 degrees on an older C150 will bring your airspeed from 70 indicated to about 40 in a couple of seconds if you don't lower the nose significantly and quickly. Finding yourself behind the power curve - not enough available power with flaps extended to overcome your sink rate - usually associated with an angle-of-attack situation. Without some altitude to trade for energy, you will ride that one to the ground. Overshooting final and increasing your bank angle may well result in a stall-spin event that rarely has a happy ending. Confusing the pitch/power relationship on final will have you porpoising all over the sky, possibly terminating with blown tires and a buckled firewall.These are all things that happen to seasoned pilots (watch the arrivals at Oshkosh or Sun n' Fun some time and you'll see this and much, much more. The point is - given the right circumstances and the right assistance, the exceptional FS pilot will be successful. But its a very long shot that even that individual would pilot the airplane to a successful conclusion alone. Not saying it can't be done - just statistically a bad bet. There's a reason for the 20 hours minimum of dual instruction and 20 hours of solo flight (and usually much more) required prior to a PPL check ride.That being said though, I believe the FS pilot has an unquestionable head-start. And as Michael indicated, the right attitude and frame-of-mind will put you another leg-up on the uninitiated when you begin formal training.Regards,Leon
Regarding departure stalls. In Fs I push forward on the stick to keep the speed up and would try the same in real life. Approach stall. Is a C150 very different from C172? In Fs9 I remember the flaps having two notches and the last one don't affect the speed in the way you describe it. Does F1 C172 in FS9 behaves incorrectly here?

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Regarding departure stalls. In Fs I push forward on the stick to keep the speed up and would try the same in real life. Approach stall. Is a C150 very different from C172? In Fs9 I remember the flaps having two notches and the last one don't affect the speed in the way you describe it. Does F1 C172 in FS9 behaves incorrectly here?
On take-off just rotate at the correct speed and follow the planned climb profile - adjust pitch as necessary.The C150 and the earlier C172s (and that may have been a function of model number as well) had 40 degrees of flap travel. This caused trouble with inattentive pilots, and the airplanes were very difficult to manage in a cross-wind with full flap extension. The cure was to limit flap travel to 30 degrees on later models.Full 40 degree flap extension on my C206 requires cruise power setting on final to maintain the glide slope. I only use the full 40 if clearing an obstacle into a short field. With power off in that configuration the descent angle is obscene. This is a great short-coming with the Carenado C206 flight model. It's a beautiful model but the behavior is pretty unrealistic from a 'numbers' standpoint.Leon

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Having recently done this, I can say that Microsoft Flight Simulator definitely prepares you very well for the mechanics of flying a Cessna 172, things like knowing not to try to lift off until your speed is right ... knowing which window to look out of to see your airport in the pattern ... knowing that when you're low on approach, the thing to do is to add power and not to pitch up with the yoke ... those sorts of things. How to trim the aircraft to take pressure off the yoke once you've established your altitude. The basics of flying.What I found most interesting about my real life flight experience was the feeling provided by the real world atmosphere. It almost felt like the airplane was swimming in water the way it would move around as the wind pushed it slightly up on one wing, or pushed the nose to the left or right. It reminded me of the first time I drove an automobile and learned for the first time just how much a car moves around in its lane even though it appears to be driving in a straight line.In a car, your automobile is always moving around in its lane and subtly changing speeds (usually only in two degrees of motion). You really don't notice this much until you're behind the wheel with total control. After you drive a car for some time, you learn how much the car can move before you need to correct, and these little small corrections become second nature, such that say a year after you've been driving, you no longer hardly even notice how your body and brain are coordinating corrective activities in the background while you're hurtling down the interstate at 75 miles per hour eating a hamburger and fiddling with the radio not even hardly paying attention to the road.The feeling I got when I experienced a real Cessna flight was almost exactly like this. It took me back to my first day of driving, when I felt I had to concentrate very heavily to correct any slight change in direction. But by the end of my first flight, I had overcome this tendency, and began "feeling" the wind, and began to be able to judge when it would push me off course if I did not correct, and when it wouldn't. It's that sort of sensation that Flight Simulator hasn't yet captured in my view, although I believe one day it will.Finally, I will add this: I had no fear and had a lot of confidence. I did not suffer from "information overload." All the instruments were exactly where I expected they'd be. I knew exactly what was happening as we turned on final. I knew exactly where to look for the PAPI and what to do to correct. My CFI put his hands on the yoke for the last 10 feet of the landing (he said they are required to), but other than that, he felt no need to take control of the aircraft - and he said that was not uncommon for people who have experience with Microsoft Flight Simulator.Having some experience now in both Flight Simulator and in the real world, I have a much greater appreciation for the excellent job that the ACES group did with Flight Simulator X. It is "as real as it gets" without being ... well ... real.

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It is one thing to do everything right while sitting in the chair in front of your PC and completely different to repeat the same thing in real aircraft alone. I recall from my early days of training for PPL - it was one thing to do a good landing while your instructor was next to you and quite different than actually do it alone. The psychological gap between simming and real thing is even larger.
I will never forget my first solo! We had just returned from the practice area and my instructor said I was ready. I knew that if I spent any time thinking about it, I'd get my nerves worked up and I'd put the solo off till next time. I also knew that I had the mechanics of flying and landing down very well, so I decided to go for it. I would do a few touch and go's and call it a day. The first few minutes of my solo I was so busy taxiing, communicating with the tower, and preparing for takeoff that I didn't have time to get nervous. Before I knew it I was sitting at the end of the runway cleared to go. I felt good, so I gave it full throttle and off I went. Shortly after takeoff and still feeling good I prepared for a right hand turn to stay in the pattern. I looked left, then I look right. Suddenly I noticed there was a big vacant spot where the instructor had always been. The reality that I was flying the plane alone with no backup hit me like a bolt of lightning - I'm sure my face turned a few shades whiter than normal. All I wanted to do at that moment was get the plane back on the ground ASAP. By the time I completed the pattern and greased the landing my nerves had settled down quite a bit so I decided to do another circuit. I completed the three touch and go's that I had planned and felt a little better and more confident after each one. You are absolutely right. There is a "psychological gap" between simming and real life. All that confidence you have when flying the simulator can vanish in an instant in real life when your nerves come into play.

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We simmers might have the same feeling if MS had added "format-c on crash" or something.:-)

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With no experience in an actual aircraft, it's the unexpected things that will kill you.
I have to agree with that one. There are still limitations on what flight sims can offer, and that other stuff not available in sims is the one that can get you in trouble. I am not even sure if the big jet CAT# sims can simulate some of this stuff. The airplane can quickly get away from you if you do not react properly, even in very simple maneuvers. Think of riding a bicycle as an example, a rather simple and straightforward process, but try to teach it to someone who has never done it, and I can guarantee you they will fall more than once...They are not going through the air at more than 100 mph while doing this though...regards,Macs

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We simmers might have the same feeling if MS had added "format-c on crash" or something.:-)
Until SP1 came out, they had this. :(

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