Hey guys, I was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction. I'm currently having a sort out of Manchester UK (EGCC) and have downloaded and tweeked a good recent afcad file. EGCC has 2 runways and I watch the AI traffic arriving & departing on both. My question is how does FS9 determine which aircraft lands on which runway and can this be changed. With AI Seperation running sometimes aircraft land on 23L when I have several aircraft waiting to depart on this runway, runway 23R would be a much better option. Also thus far I have not seen any traffic departing on 23R, they ALL depart on 23L. Any tips??Cheers in advanceGREAT TO SEE THE LIBRARY BACK ON LINE TOO!!!!

Hi,First of all, ditto on the library's come-back, I noticed how valuable it was to my simming while it was offline.To answer your question, FS ATC will assign the closest runway to the apron for departures and also takes into consideration runway length although this is not always the case.By using the AF2 program and this is the best way, you can assign certain different runways for T.O and LDG. This is very easy to do and helps AI traffic flow very much when the airport has parallel runways. It's slightly more difficult and requires some editing in the AF2 file (airport layout) when the runways are in different directions.In your case at EGCC, I would assign one runway for landing and another for take-off, as you say, it would certainly be a better option.Hope this helps

My question is how does FS9 determine which aircraft lands on which runway and can this be changed. With AI Seperation running sometimes aircraft land on 23L when I have several aircraft waiting to depart on this runway, runway 23R would be a much better option. Also thus far I have not seen any traffic departing on 23R, they ALL depart on 23L. Any tips??

Just to expand a little, the basic principle behind FS's decisions is as follows:Take-offs: Aircraft are directed to the nearest runway to their parking standLandings: Aircraft are directed to the nearest runway to their route.There are a few exceptions, e.g. in some circumstances GA traffic will use a shorter runway, but that's the crux of it. At most parallel-runway airports, the traffic in FS is fairly evenly shared but Ringway is not typical because both runways are on the same side of the airport, resulting in the further one never qualifying for departures. As onurksn says, you can force all departures to use 23R by closing 23L to departures in AFCAD, but unfortunately there isn't a way to share them between both.It is difficult to know the best way to set it up, for it is an awkward layout. Forcing take-offs from 23R means a long taxi-out down the runway, causing a backlog of departures if you have realistic levels of AI traffic. On the other hand if 23R is used only for landing traffic, they all have to cross 23L to get to the gate, causing long delays on arrival if there are a string of departures leaving.I don't know how EGCC is worked in the real world (ideas, anybody?), but it seems hardly the best of layouts.John

I usually assign the inner runways for departures and the outers for landings.To avoid the AI pile-ups John mentions, I use the "diamond technique" which is explained thoroughly here:http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtopic=249846&hlIndeed, the layout is awkward, landings on 23L would block the runway for backtracks...Not good. Try both settings and see how they work but definitely use the technique above for traffic flow. Alternatively, (my personal choice) create 2 separate files- 05L for TO and 05R for LDG with northerly, easterly winds- 23L for TO and 23R for LDG with southerly, westerly windsIn this case, close the opposite ends for both operations.(I hope this was clear :( )

In general there is one additional consideration and that is if the airport is under IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions) where navaid landings must be used such as under 3 nm visibility and I believe under 1,000 foot ceilings. If a runway does not have suitable devices it can't be used in such cases.AI will not see new ILS/LLZ devices installed using only AFCAD nor will they show in the default GPS. It takes a full scenery editor to add them using a full approach installation (to be included in the upcoming freeware ADE Aircraft Design Editor now in beta). Your aircraft will see these AFCAD add-ons.Wind direction (headwind/tailwind/crosswind components)over a certain speed also affect runway choice and can be higher on the priority list of runway considerations. I believe a small tailwind is allowed. This combines with runway length, privileges, and facilities to reach the best decision.

To avoid the AI pile-ups John mentions, I use the "diamond technique" which is explained thoroughly here:http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtopic=249846&hl

Thanks for the tip, Onur, I'll have a look into that.Best wishes,John

If you screw around with things, it is worth noting that EGCC has a few extenuating circumstances which determine what uses which particular runway. It would take too long to list them all (get hold of the European Aeronautical Group's Aerodrome Booklet for the place if you want to know it all exactly). You can buy a current one for the place from their website and many pilots supply shops, or if you live near Manchester, there is an aviation hobbyist (aka plane spotters) shop on the roof of the main car park at Manchester Airport (where the observation point is), and they usually have old copies of that and other airport related charts for sale in there. There was also an article on ATC at Manchester a few months back in Airliner World magazine, which explained a lot of the procedures.Anyway, here are a few of the constraints on operations at EGCC:Runway 23R (or 24R if you haven't updated FS) is available for Cat II/III operations. Runway 05L (or 06L in the original FS) is also Cat III, but only Cat II for A and B category aircraft (that's because the radar altimeters on aircraft are affected by the terrain when at the decision height, when coming in that way). specifically, when you pass over the Bollin Valley, your radar altimeter will read 200 feet higher.For all those Cat II/III operations, there are two distinct low visibility procedure levels: ATC Low Visibility Procedures and ATC Low Visibility Procedures due to Cloud Ceiling.If the runway visual range is less than 600 metres, ATC Low Vis comes into force, and that means:1. Single runway operations on 23R or 05L, dips below rvr of 400 metres mean you have to be fully qualified for the high Category stuff.2. All aircraft departing 23R or 05L have to use the Juliet 2 or Alpha 2 holding points3. You can only vacate 23L via RET Bravo Delta, or Link Alpha, and you can only vacate 05L via RET Juliet Bravo or Link Juliet.If the runway visual range is 600 metres or more, and the cloud ceiling is 200 feet or less, ATC Low Vis due to Cloud Ceiling comes into force, and that means:1. 23L/23R dual operation, or 05R single runway operation.2. The lights are used to indicate which points you can vacate these runways from.3. When dual runway operations are happening, 23R Cat III holding points become Golf 2, Hotel 2, Foxtrot 2 and Delta 2, and it is a requirement to read your hold short instructions back to ATC in full. Radar is also used to monitor this, as well as to confirm runway vacations. The different hold points are largely because vehicles and aircraft in other areas can possibly interfere with the localiser beacon for the ILS, but also to make things easier to handle for ATC.Some procedures at Manchester relate to the time of day, and even the ATC clearance designation changes depending on the time of day, with it being Manchester Delivery on 121.7 in daylight and Manchester Ground, on the same frequency, when at night. Between 10pm and 6am the second (newer) runway (23L/05R) cannot be used since it puts too much noise over residential areas where all the posh people live. If it was a scumbag council estate, the CAA would probably allow airshows over it at midnight, but that's money for you (don't get too upset, it means Pete Dowson can get a good night's sleep, since he lives near there, and you don't want any bugs in the new FSUIPC because he's feeling tired, do you?). The only time that rule is not in force is when there is maintenance being done on the other runway, in which case the rich people get their windows rattled at 2am.At quiet times of the day, single runway operation is often the norm, when the original 23R/05L (i.e. the one nearest the terminals) is used, with both take offs and landings taking place (so if FS AI is not using 23L/05R, then it's not necessarily incorrect). Sometimes they will let light aircraft commence a take off roll from the middle of the runway on these occasions, since a Cessna 152 would have to be seriously overloaded to need a 10,000 foot take off roll.Note that some taxiways and links are not designed to take the weight of big jets, although there aren't too many of those, but where they exist, anything bigger than an A320 or a 737 gets steered around them, so that too can have a bearing on operations from time to time.Hope that helps. If you want to get really fancy with your AFCAD and do some realistic stuff, let me know and I'll give you more info.Al

Manchester works in much the same way as Heathrow. In as much that one rwy is used for take off and the other for landings. They are then switched over as part of the noise abatement procedure. So in your afcad file designate one rwy to be exclusively for landings, the other for take-off. Remember if you use PFE or RC to also make the same designations in those programmes. Here is an extract from NATS7 Unless otherwise required by ATC, Runway 23R/23L shall be used for all movements when there is a head wind component and when atail wind component is not greater than 5 kt on either runway.8 Link Alpha should be used for all jet aircraft and all large propeller-driven aircraft departing from Runway 05L. However between thehours of 0600 and 2330 (local), any aircraft may depart from Links AG, AF and B subject to operational requirements by ATC/pilots.Between the hours of 2330 and 0600 (local), all jet aircraft and large propeller-driven aircraft shall depart from the most westerly linkavailable.9 Every aircraft using the airport shall, after take-off or 'go around' be operated in the quietest possible manner, aircraft exceeding 92 dB(A)(105 PNdB) by day (0700-2300 local time) and 83 dB(A) (96 PNdB) by night (2300-0700 local time) at the relevant monitoring points willbe subject to a penalty of

Thanks for the tip, Onur, I'll have a look into that.Best wishes,John

My pleasure, John!I found about it in that thread, until then, I had the pile-ups at big airports with parallel runways like EDDF, KATL, etc...From time to time you will see the occasional collision or an AI trying to cross the runway on your take-off roll but I believe it's an excellent way around the ATC limitation.

From time to time you will see the occasional collision or an AI trying to cross the runway on your take-off roll but I believe it's an excellent way around the ATC limitation.

Funnily enough I have experienced this once or twice with add-on sceneries and thought it was an unintentional ADCAD design error and hastily fixed it! I've never liked the "star" crosswind runway arrangement for the same reason - have had some frightening-looking views from the cockpit with that. But I can see the benefits of either, which can be applied or not applied according to each person's taste. It is certainly a way to keep things moving.Best wishes,John

WOW :( guys, thank you so much for all the suggestions! I've now got the place running as smooth as is possible with the runway config! I'm using both runways for landing but only 23L for takeoffs. thus far there are very few delays with crossing traffic. I believe that if a real world aircraft flies into EGCC then it's part of my FP's on FS9, so lots of traffic!!I do have some other issues though I can't explain! A small number of aircraft (about 5%) are landing well short of the runway and suddenly appear from the trees, also a couple of times aircraft have not responded to ATC and have had thier FP terminated. Any thoughts??Cheers again.

Manchester works in much the same way as Heathrow. In as much that one rwy is used for take off and the other for landings.

Just a small point. Not any more at Heathrow - I read that since a couple of years ago they use whatever is convenient to improve capacity. I have certainly seen parallel landings pass over the M25 twice, and my wife was on a plane taxying onto 27L to depart and could see two arrivals making their way in. In Flight Simulator I find Heathrow works smoothest without any attempts to use specific runways too.All the info on Ringway is most interesting, though, thanks.

I do have some other issues though I can't explain! A small number of aircraft (about 5%) are landing well short of the runway and suddenly appear from the trees, also a couple of times aircraft have not responded to ATC and have had thier FP terminated. Any thoughts??

AI traffic can be quirky, particularly GA aircraft in my experience which don't always have the best Flight Dynamics. Another correspondent had a similar problem specifically with A319s although I couldn't reproduce it. If you can pin it down to a specific aircraft it is possible to replace the FDs with those of another, although it isn't quite a straight swap as you have to copy some figures back from the original FDs. I can guide you on this if needed.I have never heard ATC cancel a FP to an AI aircraft, although you can hear VFR aircraft having their flight following cancelled when leaving controlled airspace . . . it couldn't be that you are hearing?Hoping this helps.John

Thanks John, I'll make a few notes of which aircraft are falling short of the runway. In relation to ATC terminating, if I sit at at the airport listening and watching traffic they contact the tower normally for landing and when ATC reply with weather and runway information the aircraft does not respond. After about 3 calls stating " did you hear my last transmission" the FP is terminated. The aircraft still lands but thats even if theres already an aircraft on the runway! When it vacates it calls in for parking as normal. Very odd.Fox

Thanks John, I'll make a few notes of which aircraft are falling short of the runway. In relation to ATC terminating, if I sit at at the airport listening and watching traffic they contact the tower normally for landing and when ATC reply with weather and runway information the aircraft does not respond. After about 3 calls stating " did you hear my last transmission" the FP is terminated. The aircraft still lands but thats even if theres already an aircraft on the runway! When it vacates it calls in for parking as normal. Very odd.

How fascinating! FS's ATC never seems to stop pulling new tricks out of the bag.John

Thanks John, I'll make a few notes of which aircraft are falling short of the runway. In relation to ATC terminating, if I sit at at the airport listening and watching traffic they contact the tower normally for landing and when ATC reply with weather and runway information the aircraft does not respond. After about 3 calls stating " did you hear my last transmission" the FP is terminated. The aircraft still lands but thats even if theres already an aircraft on the runway! When it vacates it calls in for parking as normal. Very odd.Fox

The AI FP getting canceled is certainly very fascinating! This, I've never seen before!WOAI sometimes needs a couple of minutes to get the schedules in order so it's possible to see a couple of short landings. Could be another reason though...

when ATC reply with weather and runway information the aircraft does not respond.

Since default FS ATC doesn't give weather info for landings, are you using EditVoicePack?