Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest FSRules

Learning to Land Nicely

Recommended Posts

Hey, does anyone know how to kiss the runway without having to dive the plane so low to get the right altitude? I like using the ILS approach and I love the glide slope, but how do I make sure the plane doesn't have to do a nose dive to descent (yes I want to use full flaps)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

Hey, does anyone know how to kiss the runway without having to dive the plane so low to get the right altitude? I like using the ILS approach and I love the glide slope, but how do I make sure the plane doesn't have to do a nose dive to descent (yes I want to use full flaps)?
You have to make sure you are using correct speeds for the aircraftt in question. most add-on aircraft come with manuals that have certain power settings for climb, cruise, landing, flaps down, flaps up etc etc.Other than that just keep practicing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How do I access these files while I'm playing FS9? is it on the flights section?
Just use the "Select a Flight" option and find the flight you wish to use. There are thre of them - for the default 737, 747, and 777 and all start with the words Pre-set Landing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the nice landing training addon. I was wondering, though, do pilots often use ILS approaches and glide slopes to land, or is using that simply the easy way out?Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for the nice landing training addon. I was wondering, though, do pilots often use ILS approaches and glide slopes to land, or is using that simply the easy way out?Thanks.
I believe I read somewhere a few years back that real world pilots are required to do a "hands on" approach and landing every (forgot the exact number) third or fourth time. The rest of the time they use ILS approaches if the airport is so equipted.I hope some real world pilot (active or retired) will jump in and confirm or clarify what I just typed as my memory is not what it once was. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The trick is to set your self in a plane you know inside out on an ILS and save the flight.Redo the landing again and again and again. (with reloading.. takes some swift action when the flight is loaded).do it with and without a/p.. dozens of times.. eventually you become autodidact, and got it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was wondering, though, do pilots often use ILS approaches and glide slopes to land, or is using that simply the easy way out?
Actually, even if an ILS is available to us, we choose to fly manually the ILS. That is, autopilot ILS mode is engaged, but the autopilot itself is not. So we follow the cues given to us by both the LOC and GS antennae and the Flight Director bars. We only do autolands when it is required to keep the airplane's CAT II/III capabilities current or in actual CAT II/III weather conditions per airline SOP (Standard Operating Procedures)
I believe I read somewhere a few years back that real world pilots are required to do a "hands on" approach and landing every (forgot the exact number) third or fourth time. The rest of the time they use ILS approaches if the airport is so equipped.
I think you mean IFR approaches. We have to do one IFR approach in real IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions) or simulated IMC every now and then (I think it is every 6 landings, I don't know, as that is FAA regulations and my country is not covered by those) to keep ourselves current.By the way, has the OP read the famous adagio "Any landing you can walk away from, is a good landing"?What makes a landing "nice" is setting the aircraft's mains on the proper touchdown point on the runway. The key is always the proper speed for the aircraft configuration. If you are at the proper speed when crossing the runway threshold (at 50ft height) and keep descending to flare height in a stabilised way, retard throttle levers and smoothly pitch up a few degrees and hold that attitude until touchdown. Flare too high and will lose airspeed, thus you will lose lift, thus you will lose height and the result will be a smackdown rather than a touchdown. Flare too low and the inertia carried by the aircraft will make the flaring action less effective and you will hit the planet instead of landing on it.The key is speed and proper flare action.Best regards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Actually, even if an ILS is available to us, we choose to fly manually the ILS. That is, autopilot ILS mode is engaged, but the autopilot itself is not. So we follow the cues given to us by both the LOC and GS antennae and the Flight Director bars. We only do autolands when it is required to keep the airplane's CAT II/III capabilities current or in actual CAT II/III weather conditions per airline SOP (Standard Operating Procedures)I think you mean IFR approaches. We have to do one IFR approach in real IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions) or simulated IMC every now and then (I think it is every 6 landings, I don't know, as that is FAA regulations and my country is not covered by those) to keep ourselves current.By the way, has the OP read the famous adagio "Any landing you can walk away from, is a good landing"?What makes a landing "nice" is setting the aircraft's mains on the proper touchdown point on the runway. The key is always the proper speed for the aircraft configuration. If you are at the proper speed when crossing the runway threshold (at 50ft height) and keep descending to flare height in a stabilised way, retard throttle levers and smoothly pitch up a few degrees and hold that attitude until touchdown. Flare too high and will lose airspeed, thus you will lose lift, thus you will lose height and the result will be a smackdown rather than a touchdown. Flare too low and the inertia carried by the aircraft will make the flaring action less effective and you will hit the planet instead of landing on it.The key is speed and proper flare action.Best regards
When the real life pilots land, they don't have to pitch their noses down too much. How can I prevent myself from having to do a nosedive to land?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When the real life pilots land, they don't have to pitch their noses down too much. How can I prevent myself from having to do a nosedive to land?
From that comment i seem to lean towards the fact that you are coming in way to fast if you are having to nosedive it to land.What are you flying at the moment? and at what speed do you approach? Just wondering as this information can definetly solve your problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
From that comment i seem to lean towards the fact that you are coming in way to fast if you are having to nosedive it to land.What are you flying at the moment? and at what speed do you approach? Just wondering as this information can definetly solve your problem.
I often fly the Boeing 737 and the Boeing 777, and I often try landing at speeds of 155-157 knots for both planes. I'm not ready to fly a B747 although I've landed the plane safely a couple of times. For that plane, I think I landed at 155 knots too. I've kissed the runway once, but that needed a nosedive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Weight has a significant effect on approach speed and altitude as well. Even planes as small as a King Air or Learjet have fuel tanks that could contain hundreds or thousands of pounds of fuel. With an unnecessary quantity of fuel in the tanks the plane needs more lift to follow the glide slope at the recommended flap setting. If the pilot attempts an approach at the recommended speed a higher angle of attack will be required to maintain glide slope and reach the touchdown point, impeding the pilot's ability to see the runway over the instrument panel. Furthermore, the higher weight and airspeed will result in a longer rollout requirement to get the plane slowed enough to turn onto the taxiway.Thus, unless you plan to fly a route approaching the plane's maximum range you will need to use the fuel and payload dialog to "fuel" the plane at some quantity less than the default 100%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You need to calculate the weight of the a/c at destination in order to achieve the correct Vat.So for each different a/c you fly you will need weight and Vref tables. There's no rule of thumb except for a/c of similar weight and configuration.Vololiberista

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I often fly the Boeing 737 and the Boeing 777, and I often try landing at speeds of 155-157 knots for both planes.
I assume you fly the 737-400.Depeding on the weight, at Flaps30 the Vref is appr. between 120-155 ktsUnless you have a very high landing weight, 155 is way too fast. A medium weighted 400 has a Vref on appr. 135kts, so your appraoch speed will be around 140kts like WhiteKnight indicated.The same apply for the 777-200 BTW...Vref25 at 150T: 123kts / Vref25 at 250T: 159ktsA medium weighted 777-200 at 200T has a Vref25 of 142kts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're diving at the runway, it would suggest that you are going above the G/P or PAPIs/VASIs in the latter stages of the approach and /or you are flaring too early. Even at a too high a speed, you shouldn't need to dive at the runway if your flare is correct. It just means that you will float further down the runway as your speed bleeds off to the correct speed for your weight if you hold the correct landing attitude and the aircraft can then settle on the runway.Colin B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few pointers:For ease of practice, try the 737 with about 5,000lbs of fuel for the approach.-Setup an approach 10 miles from the runway at 3,000ft above the touchdown zone elevation (e.g. TDZE=1,000ft then start at 4,000ft). This should give you plenty of room to make mistakes.-A good rule of thumb for how high you should be at any point along the approach is 300 ft of altitude/nautical mile for a 3 degree glideslope-fairly typical-Start the approach practice with gear down, flaps 40, and 145 kts IAS-Practice with no weather to begin with-Tune the ILS for reference but hand-fly if desired-In this configuration your nose should be a degree or two above the horizon -At approach speed and no wind, you can expect to descend at 700ft/min-Ideally, you want to find a trimmed pitch (degrees nose up) and power (N1) configuration that has you descending in the landing config at 700 ft/min at 145IAS. When you finally find this, remember it, and you can use it on every approach that you fly. You will have to make fine adjustments, but this is the best place to start! (This is most easily accomplished by setting the autopilot and observing the aircraft behavior)Once you get close to the runway and are on glideslope you should see the PAPI lights...you want 2 red/2 white. Tune VS as appropriate. Once you have the touchdown markers in site (the two big squares 1,000 ft down the runway) then visually focus on and aim for those. They should stay steady in your view (i.e. not moving up/down/left/right). At 50 ft, transition your viewpoint 3/4 of the way down the runway for better flare depth perception. At 30 feet gradually move the nose up a few degrees (you won't need too much to slow your descent) and fly the plane nicely onto the runway. At around 20 feet, retard the throttles smoothly to idle.Spoilers, brakes, and reverse to get you stopped. As everyone else has said...practice, practice, practice.Hope the helps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apart from Vref as previously mentioned ATC (that is the real ATC) will give you speed advisories both for final approach and SARs. In the case of SARs speeds may be published.Assuming then that you are at say FL70 and 30DME from your destination:-You must not be above 250IAS and in fact probably slowing down to 210IASMake your descent to 3,000 or 2,500 depending on the terrain and ATC at 210IAS (This may involve partial extention of speed brakes)As you turn to establish on the localiser you should be at 180 or 170IAS with first stage flaps depending on traffic.At about 6 or 7DME drop your gear and extend the flaps one or more settings (dependant on the a/c)As you cross the outer marker slow down to about 140IAS and extend full flapsAt screen height begin to flare thus allowing the a/c to settle back to Vref as it touches down.If your Vref is above 140IAS then you are probably too heavy and need to dump fuel over the ocean!!!Easy!!Vololiberista

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, to start getting technical, once you begin your approach say 10 miles backat say 3200 feet, onve you intercept the glideslope, another rule of thumb is to take your groundspeed, divide it by 2 then add a zero at the end and that would be your vertical speed you want to acheive, this is very easy to do and extremely accurate.Example, say you groundspeed is 120 knots, you divide 120 in 2 and you get 60, now add a 0 to 60 which gives you 600, and voila, that is what you should try to hold on your descent on your vsi, but remember you have to be on glideslope for this to work.For me this is extremly accurate, and always, and I mean always works out for me, in any aircraft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites