Wilco or Eaglesoft Citation X?

[Trans_27 Pilot Chase 59]

God bless you David. I was hoping someone would be able to step in a referee.

[Sharrow 0]

Thanks for stepping in David. Is there perhaps a way (behind the scenes) to force ES trolls to stay away unless someone specifically asks them a direct question?

[windycloud 30]

After reviewing this thread... I believe the question is actually about alternate destinations.While the Citation 750's FMS can indeed support alternate destinations... we didn't develop this in ours. The reason: Discussion with real world Citation 750 pilots revealed they never used it. So... that's the jist of it. If you take issue with this... *shrug* We didn't charge $80-$100 for the addon either :(

Hi Ed, that's very interesting. Thanks for the input. I'm always "all ears" when I hear real world practices. So if they don't use alternate in the real thing, what do they do when they need to divert? I understand that diversion may be a very rare event also but I think it does happen.P.S. never mind I'll ask this in the ES forum. I thank the moderator for stepping in. This is bound to happen sooner or later. Eaglesoft related threads have long become a phenomenon here. Let's hope that'll change now.

[cimgrp501 30]

Many thanks Alex. :( Gazz. Eaglesoft builds and sells its own products. It happens that we chose to use the F1 Wrapper System and include a 30 Day Refund Option as it is the most user friendly system available.I suppose you could compare our "awful support" to that of the notorious "support merry go round" of the other vendor/publisher mentioned here but to do so would invite a "food fight" would it not?Or could that be your goal here? :(

Ron,I am just getting back into simming after some illness within the family, and will almost certainly buy your Citation. However, it has been tedious and trying at times to sort through your various posts, sometimes appropriate and justified, yet often in the category of the above response.The post you replied to began and ended with positive comments, and yes, in between included a negative perception of support which is certainly a valid and important part of choosing a vendor and aircraft for almost everyone. The facts here are:1) You are the one who introduced the idea of support "comparison" with another vendor, not Gazz.2) You are the one who described the other vendor's support as a "notorious merry go round." Your attempts to dance around that later, rather than just apologize, were not convincing to anyone.3) You are the one who introduced the word and notion of a "fight."4) You are the one who not very subtly questioned the motives of Gazz, not with any evidence, but with an ethereal opining of "could that be your goal here?" Of course it "could" be, along with a thousand other possibilities, including just taking him at face value as you prefer I'm sure.Given these facts, I could also easily make a number of speculative and arrogant assumptions and comments about your intentions here, but yes, they would be assumptions, no more valid than yours, and serve what productive purpose for our community?I certainly believe David took the appropriate action in this thread. However, I would like to continue to see participation from your group here as it has helped me make an educated decision about the Citation, and I hope to read more from you about excellent products from ES in the future.So I hope to see your active and helpful participation in these forums for a long time to come, hopefully at the same higher altitude and perspective achieved with your aircraft. You have accomplished too much with your products to fly any lower.Regards, Roy

[Dirk98 354]

Now, Eaglesoft, please let simmers give their opinion about these two products, instead of this very boring, agressive, sterile and everlasting ping pong game between you and forumers . Thx

Lol, to some reason it always turns more or less the same direction with them against us customers too, when you start asking too many questions here or there on their boards. Buying their wonderful planes is more like liability not even privilege. I have a feeling they might start writing to my boss in the office to warn him how stupid, mendacious, bad, etc their inquisitive customer is, lol, these guys have/feel no frontiers. But being a boss for myself and having known them for a while, I just find it more hysterical than anything. It's like buy ES and face the conseqences.And please, no bad feelings, guys. Wilcon/FT, ES are all good companies, and even Abacus is. Dirk.

[N400QW 205]

"I certainly believe David took the appropriate action in this thread. However, I would like to continue to see participation from your group here as it has helped me make an educated decision about the Citation, and I hope to read more from you about excellent products from ES in the future.So I hope to see your active and helpful participation in these forums for a long time to come, hopefully at the same higher altitude and perspective achieved with your aircraft. You have accomplished too much with your products to fly any lower.Regards, Roy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Roy, for the record, David took the appropriate actions. It's quite obvious that there are significant differences in viewpoints, attitudes, and perspectives on everything we do.We'll take your sage advice and attempt to fly higher rather than lower. :(

[cimgrp501 30]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Roy, for the record, David took the appropriate actions. It's quite obvious that there are significant differences in viewpoints, attitudes, and perspectives on everything we do.We'll take your sage advice and attempt to fly higher rather than lower. :( Ron, on second reading my post seems a bit overly dramatic. Sorry, maybe a result of health events with a child which thankfully have turned out much better than was initially predicted, and changed my perspective a bit. Just a couple of points of clarification then I will disappear back into the real world.1) With time by necessity much more limited than in years past, I have become more frustrated at having to read through what appear to be personal battles to try and find meaningful information. I wish folks would take just a moment to write a few specific words to further clarify their meaning and intent rather than make general characterizations, like "awful" or "terrible." They are too general to convey any helpful information to someone unfamiliar with the product/vendor, and leave such latitude for interpretation that they subsequently spawn all sorts of speculative and unrelated responses. That is why I said earlier I understand your frustration at times.2) Flying in FS has taken on entirely new dimensions for me, as it has provided a rare opportunity to briefly escape what were for a while some difficult realities, and thus helped me keep my sanity. This happens only because companies like yours & PMDG provide such a level of immersion with accuracy in all aspects of flight and ops that sometimes, for a few moments, I forget that I am not really flying. For that I want to thank you and all others who have provided that opportunity, including Avsim, where I learned about these wonderful aircraft.Now enough posting and back to catching up with all that's happened in the FS world recently, and thanks for your kind reply.Regards, Roy

[N400QW 205]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Roy, for the record, David took the appropriate actions. It's quite obvious that there are significant differences in viewpoints, attitudes, and perspectives on everything we do.We'll take your sage advice and attempt to fly higher rather than lower. :( Ron, on second reading my post seems a bit overly dramatic. Sorry, maybe a result of health events with a child which thankfully have turned out much better than was initially predicted, and changed my perspective a bit. Just a couple of points of clarification then I will disappear back into the real world.1) With time by necessity much more limited than in years past, I have become more frustrated at having to read through what appear to be personal battles to try and find meaningful information. I wish folks would take just a moment to write a few specific words to further clarify their meaning and intent rather than make general characterizations, like "awful" or "terrible." They are too general to convey any helpful information to someone unfamiliar with the product/vendor, and leave such latitude for interpretation that they subsequently spawn all sorts of speculative and unrelated responses. That is why I said earlier I understand your frustration at times.2) Flying in FS has taken on entirely new dimensions for me, as it has provided a rare opportunity to briefly escape what were for a while some difficult realities, and thus helped me keep my sanity. This happens only because companies like yours & PMDG provide such a level of immersion with accuracy in all aspects of flight and ops that sometimes, for a few moments, I forget that I am not really flying. For that I want to thank you and all others who have provided that opportunity, including Avsim, where I learned about these wonderful aircraft.Now enough posting and back to catching up with all that's happened in the FS world recently, and thanks for your kind reply.Regards, Roy

Roy, thanks again for your insight into what has too often occured in the sim community.Acknowledgeing the fact that we are too often drawn into the fray is not any easy truth to face but face it we shall. :( We can relate to the real world difficulties you've faced as we too have experienced quite few real world challenges over the last 16 months.Nevertheless, we will continue building the best products we can muster and improve on the support front to the extent that is possible.

[ryanbatc 12,857]

Thanks for stepping in David. Is there perhaps a way (behind the scenes) to force ES trolls to stay away unless someone specifically asks them a direct question?

Woah woah woah.... developers can defend their products, can't they? And calling them trolls? BS... I think some of the users here troll to get ES in trouble....IMHO

[rightseater 0]

Yep, developers can defend their products here. If anyone tells you they can't, then they are lying and I can prove it. But David has asked this thread to stay on topic, sohere's what the OP wrote:"what is better in your opinion? Im looking for a good one and I found these two but didn't know which was better.-thank you"All other matters can go through PM.

[ryanbatc 12,857]

Fair as fruit then....Anyway I only have the Wilco one and have noticed a few bugs, to the point I hardly fly it anymore.

[WarpD 824]

Btw, you can't create new flight plans in CX 2.0 in the current 1.83m version.

Inaccurate statement. Flight plans can be created all day long without issue. Even after you've flown one and landed, you can create a new one for the next leg of your trip. You do have to know how as it's not as simple as pressing a single button and everything's ready for you.

[WarpD 824]

As to CitationX its FMS seriously lacks Direct to proper functionality. I'd say it is the biggest issue for me with CX now. I hope it won't take them long to complete it.

Another inaccurate statement. The "DIR TO" functionality is in place and complete and functions as it should. There is a known issue with regards to FSUIPC... as in if you're not running the current version of FSUIPC, DIR TO can cause crashes... which indicates an issue within FSUIPC not the Citation X itself.

[Dirk98 354]

Another inaccurate statement. The "DIR TO" functionality is in place and complete and functions as it should. There is a known issue with regards to FSUIPC... as in if you're not running the current version of FSUIPC, DIR TO can cause crashes... which indicates an issue within FSUIPC not the Citation X itself.

When you use DIR TO you screw up TOC position on the MAP, that shows not on your updated flight path anymore, how about that? Easy to reproduce. No crashes for me so far.Cheers,Dirk.

[Dirk98 354]

Inaccurate statement. Flight plans can be created all day long without issue. Even after you've flown one and landed, you can create a new one for the next leg of your trip. You do have to know how as it's not as simple as pressing a single button and everything's ready for you.

I have the manual, I didn't say it was just pressing a single button. When I fix it I'll go fly Erj-145LR v2.0 (SP2) which feels, works and flies just perfect for me. You'll have to work on your CX yet, it's far from complete, but obviously it has potential.Cheers,Dirk.