Back to the basics

[Turbine777 13]

Hello gents, I have been making a spreadsheet of some small hops around the states (state to state basically) and plan on making it available once I finish. I am trying to do most flights over 200 miles (Some are 400ish)so it can be used for shuttle flights in the MD-11 and some nice trips in the JS41 as well. In doing this it has raised questions about how real world pilots would navigate VOR to VOR. The way I have been writing it makes perfect sense to myself but since I'm not a real pilot and don't have any actual training or experience, thought I would get these questions finally answered.To make my questions more easily understood, here is an example route exactly how it is from my spreadsheet.KCMH - KHUFRoute: DIPNE;V12;KELLY;TTH;KHUFComplete list of waypoints: KCMH;DIPNE/F;PIZZA/F;MECAN/F;TARRY/F;BONEE/F;DQN/V;RID/V;SHB/V;HEVAV/F;OZMOE/F;ROSES/F;ZARHO/F;KELLY/F;TTH/V;KHUF (This is in the format for www.runwayfinder.com. You can copy and paste it in the location field at the top of the site to modify the route or do a map recon before you fly).Example:When flying to a VOR I normally fly the radial along my route that leads to the VOR and then outbound on the outbound radial. Looking the pic above you can see the route travels inbound to the Shelbyville (SHB) VOR on the 080 degree Rad then outbound on 251. Question 1:Say the VOR course was 080 in, and then 260 out. Do real pilots fly each radial as they are, or rather than following the 080 radial in the first place, wouldn't they rather just dial in 260 from the start? This way it's done in one step rather than messing with the OBS more often and makes traveling TO the VOR easier for novices since turning away from the needle may be confusing for some when traveling TO on an outbound rad.Question 2:This could answer #1 or why someone may do it the initial way, but is the signal strength of each radial equal in real life as it is depicted in FSX? So being say 30 miles out of SHB, would I even be able to tune the 260 radial once the 080 rad came to life (within pickup range)?Question 3:In my spreadsheet I am trying to not just list the route but also add directions and frequencies as needed. For this particular route the instructions read as follows (this may change greatly depending on the answers I get for #1), of course this is mainly for those flying VOR to VOR or those that just want to know what's happening:"Head North, NorthWest to Intercept APE on 116.7 - 271 Radial. Intercept DQN 114.5 on Rad 085 - (Get KDAY transition at intersection BONEE, Clear at DQN VOR) - Outbound on 234 - Inetercept RID 110.6 on 055 - Out on 264 - Intercept SHB 112.0 on 080 - Out on 251 - Intercept TTH 115.3 on 097 @ KELLY Intersection - Out on 227 (Airport right there) - (If ILS RW5) ICPT ILS RW5 on 109.7 HDG 049 - Procedure turn within 10 miles @ 274/094/049 - Approach 2200' - TDZE 573"The question is; Would that be worded correctly?Question 4: This one is a bit embarrassing, but I can't find any mention of it on the maps. When is it not necessary to get transition through airspace? I know it depends on the Class airspace it is, but that's all I remember. In most cases I avoid the need for airspace clearance all together in the routes but in some cases it's too long to bother going around.I think that's it. Once finished I will bundle it with flight plans in both FSX IFR and PMDG formats and post it. I started it a while ago, but haven't had much time lately. I hope it would be of interest for some. The main information I have been tracking is:

• Airports (From/TO format)
• Start City & State
• Distance in NM according to FSX not real world (That can be seen on the map after you paste in the route).
• Actual Airborne Time (This is just for reference for me really since flight time will of course vary and I am doing it all in a C182)
• Waypoints (Listed as above) - Both formats, one for use with Runwayfinder.com or other comparable sites and the other for manual entry if desired in the FMC.
• Directions and Frequencies
• Reverse Course notes (Just small notes for differences with the last leg or two as well as some Airport info)

Thanks,

[Guest yankeesji]

WOW Dan! Thanks for doing this...Sounds great. I wish I could answer some of your questions, but I can't...Just wanted to express my thanks.

[ahsmatt7 1,201]

Ill see if I can answer your questions. I am in the beginning stages of my IFR training. 1. You could dial in 260 in your heading and fly the inbound 080 radial and then when you pass the VOR it would keep you on the 260 radial. When you dial in 260 in your heading, you are dialing in a course which will in turn keep you on the INBOUND radial to the VOR. If you dialed in 260 in the OBS (cessna) or in the HSI (bigger aircraft) even though you are INBOUND to the VOR, you would have reverse sensing because you are on the 080 radial INBOUND instead of being on the 260 degree radial (which you dialed in); but sense you dialed in 260, the OBS or HSI says that a 260 degree heading will take you OUTBOUND from the VOR. Clear as mud? when inbound to a VOR always remember the TO flag....or have the arrow pointing up on the HSI.2.Once you pick up a VOR signal you pick up everything. What I am trying to say is, Once I get a good VOR signal, I can tune and then fly any radial I want to until I lose the signal again. 3. I can't help you here. I may need a visual representation.4. here is airspace in a crash crash courseClass A = a pilot may only fly into this airspace if he/she has filed an IFR flight plan. Dimensions = 18000MSL-FL600Class B = A pilot needs an explicit clearance to go through this airspace if he/she is on a vfr flight plan. If on an IFR flight plan, depending on wht speed the aircraft is going they may vector you through or around the Airspace if it really busy. Dimensions = Looks like an upside down wedding cake with the ceiling being usually 10000' AGLClass C = A pilot needs to have an OK from the controller to transit this airspace. Dimensions = smaller than class B and the ceiling is 4000' AGLClass D = A pilot needs to have an OK from the controller to transit this airspace. Its the smallest of the controlled airspace. Dimensions = A cylinder shape going up to 2500' AGL. Usually for small towered airports.Class E = If VFR, a pilot doesn't have to talk to anyone, IF IFR a controller will be in contact with the pilot like normal. Dimensions = blankets the USA wherever there isn't A,B,C,D,G airspace and starts at EITHER 700' AGL or 1200AGL and goes all the way up to 17999' MSL. It also may have extensions over airports depending on IFR approaches for that certain airport. It also starts back up at FL600 and goes on into foreverness.Class G = Non-controlled. VFR or IFR it is not controlled...(If it is controlled during IFR ops someone correct me please). Dimensions = Is everywhere that A,B,C,D,E isn't. It starts at ground level and goes up to either 700' AGL or 1200' AGL depending on the Class E shelf is for that airport.Hope that helps!!!! :(

[Jack_C 1]

Hey Dan. Some guys and I were discussing having an Live online training session with some guys that want to learn the way to do the things such as what you are asking. But of course we never got around to doing it. If someone was there to explain things and answer questions I think it would be easier than the online documentation that is out there.So to answer some of your VOR questions. It seems you have a jumpstart on what you are doing. Lets take your example of flying inbound and outbound from a VOR. You mentioned flying inbound on the 080 radial and once crossing the VOR you fly outbound on the 260 radial. Ok lets imagine, or if you have a pic of one in front of you, what the VOR instrument looks like. On the top of the instrument is where you always set the required OUTBOUND radial. Now if you look on the very bottom you will see a smaller scale set of number which corresponds to the reciprocal of what is selected on the top of the scale. The bottom is where you set your INBOUND radial which in your example would be 080. So lets imagine this. We are flying to the VOR on the 080 radial, which we set on the BOTTOM scale of the VOR. Now we will also have a FLAG (in most VOR instruments they are the triangle that resides on the right hand side of the instrument if my memory serves me correct) which will be indicating TO the VOR. That's what we want right? We want to go TO the VOR on the 080 radial. OK, when we pass the VOR we want to proceed OUTBOUND on the 260 radial. WELL since I stated we set the OUTBOUND radial on the TOP of the instrument we would set 260 BUT coincidentally we don't have to change a thing because 260 IS the reciprocal of 080 so it is already set. BUT what WILL change is the flag now will switch from TO to FROM indicating we are going FROM the station on the 260 radial. NOW I will throw in something. YOU ALWAYS FLY THE TRACK (heading in a no wind condition) OF WHAT IS SELECTED AT THE TOP OF THE VOR. Don't let this confuse you too much. Even though you are flying ON the 080 radial you still must fly a heading (no wind) to get TO the VOR but technically you are ON the 080 radialSo just a recap. When you want to go TO (or inbound) on a particular radial you set it on the BOTTOM of the VOR and hence you SHOULD get a TO FLAG (if it is a FROM flag you it is not possible to go TO the VOR on the radial you have selected on the bottom). If you want to go FROM the VOR you set it on the TOP of the instrument and you will get a FROM flag but again if it is a TO flag it is not possible from your present position to proceed from the VOR on your selected radial.Signal strength should be equal on all the radials BUT they are line of sight so if the is a mountain say on the 020 radial obviously if you aren't high enough you aren't going to get coverage if you are on the lee side of the mountain. On charts there is usually a equidistant changeover point to the next VOR but sometimes it is not equidistant. Maybe on VOR is transmitting at a higher power than obviously the changeover point will not be equidistant. BUT to answer the question in your question #2 that asks "would I even be able to tune the 260 radial once the 080 rad came to life (within pickup range)?", my answer a couple paragraphs above should answer the procedure.As for your question number 4 I am not sure if I fully understand what you are asking. But the nice thing about flying IFR is you are really led by the hand. Once you have you initial clearance the really is no need for clearances to transition though airspace.........if thats what you are asking. If you are given a clearance such as "American 124 is cleared to the the KJFK airport, Flight planned route....etc" you are given clearance right to your destination and that is the way 99.99% of clearances are. Once in a blue moon you might be given a clearance limit of say a VOR or fix in which at some point you would need further clearance to proceed but that is rarely given in a clearance when you are on the ground requesting the IFR clearance.Well gotta run for a bit but I hope this gets you started!Jack C

[ahsmatt7 1,201]

Hey Dan. Some guys and I were discussing having an Live online training session with some guys that want to learn the way to do the things such as what you are asking. But of course we never got around to doing it. If someone was there to explain things and answer questions I think it would be easier than the online documentation that is out there.So to answer some of your VOR questions. It seems you have a jumpstart on what you are doing. Lets take your example of flying inbound and outbound from a VOR. You mentioned flying inbound on the 080 radial and once crossing the VOR you fly outbound on the 260 radial. Ok lets imagine, or if you have a pic of one in front of you, what the VOR instrument looks like. On the top of the instrument is where you always set the required OUTBOUND radial. Now if you look on the very bottom you will see a smaller scale set of number which corresponds to the reciprocal of what is selected on the top of the scale. The bottom is where you set your INBOUND radial which in your example would be 080. So lets imagine this. We are flying to the VOR on the 080 radial, which we set on the BOTTOM scale of the VOR. Now we will also have a FLAG (in most VOR instruments they are the triangle that resides on the right hand side of the instrument if my memory serves me correct) which will be indicating TO the VOR. That's what we want right? We want to go TO the VOR on the 080 radial. OK, when we pass the VOR we want to proceed OUTBOUND on the 260 radial. WELL since I stated we set the OUTBOUND radial on the TOP of the instrument we would set 260 BUT coincidentally we don't have to change a thing because 260 IS the reciprocal of 080 so it is already set. BUT what WILL change is the flag now will switch from TO to FROM indicating we are going FROM the station on the 260 radial.So just a recap. When you want to go TO (or inbound) on a particular radial you set it on the BOTTOM of the VOR and hence you SHOULD get a TO FLAG (if it is a FROM flag you it is not possible to go TO the VOR on the radial you have selected on the bottom). If you want to go FROM the VOR you set it on the TOP of the instrument and you will get a FROM flag but again if it is a TO flag it is not possible from your present position to proceed from the VOR on your selected radial.Signal strength should be equal on all the radials BUT they are line of sight so if the is a mountain say on the 020 radial obviously if you aren't high enough you aren't going to get coverage if you are on the lee side of the mountain. On charts there is usually a equidistant changeover point to the next VOR but sometimes it is not equidistant. Maybe on VOR is transmitting at a higher power than obviously the changeover point will not be equidistant. BUT to answer the question in your question #2 that asks "would I even be able to tune the 260 radial once the 080 rad came to life (within pickup range)?", my answer a couple paragraphs above should answer the procedure.As for your question number 4 I am not sure if I fully understand what you are asking. But the nice thing about flying IFR is you are really led by the hand. Once you have you initial clearance the really is no need for clearances to transition though airspace.........if thats what you are asking. If you are given a clearance such as "American 124 is cleared to the the KJFK airport, Flight planned route....etc" you are given clearance right to your destination and that is the way 99.99% of clearances are. Once in a blue moon you might be given a clearance limit of say a VOR or fix in which at some point you would need further clearance to proceed but that is rarely given in a clearance when you are on the ground requesting the IFR clearance.Well gotta run for a bit but I hope this gets you started!Jack C

WOOPSS I got the first question totally backwards hahah thanks fro setting it straight! :( :(

[klk232 0]

I'll give you a real simple way of remembering what to do with radials. I fly out of KEWR, if I am going south to let's say MIA, when I get on my initial departure heading I am told to intercept the COL 350 radial inbound. Now where I am 350 would send me the opposite way, so I fly the reciprocal heading of 170 to the VOR. On your autopilot the course( or OBS heading) you set is the direction you wish to fly. A VOR is set up like a highway interchange using compass direction to define the radials, all radials are named for the heading FROM the VOR. So the 350 radial I spoke of earlier is an outbound heading FROM the VOR. Also line of sight withstanding VOR strength is constant in all directions. The "O" in VOR stands for OMNI meaning all directions.

[Turbine777 13]

Thanks guys, I've always tuned in the radials showing the TO arrow when traveling to them in the past. It just gets a little grey when following the FSX lessons (Yes, as the posts name, I went back to the basics :(). In the picture below you can see that I'm traveling southeast of the VOR but since I am heading 320° I would have that entered. The way some of the lessons seem to describe in the reading as well as my book (FSX bible) is they would show a pic something like I have but then say "Intercept and fly the 140° Radial until passing the VOR then fly outbound on the 320° radial".So due to that I thought that's how I should at least word it, glad it's not the case and I'm doing it right :Big Grin:Thanks a bunch, and thanks Matthew for the explanation of the airspace. I was including which airports to contact along the routes to get the transition, but most of the time I am well above 2500' over class D airspace so looks like I won't even need to call them :) One thing I like about the default ATC is being able to request transition and report clear. Thanks again

[StevenHPerry 20]

I can't resist correcting the description of your route. Sorry, but the FAA still has me brain washed w/ their official phraseology, no matter how long I've been out in the free world.If you're due south of the VOR pictured and are instructed to intercept the 140 and then fly the 320 outbound it would go something like this..."fly heading 050, intercept the VorName 140 radial, VorName, VorName 320 radial, then..."But if it's an airway or other published procedure change it to..."fly heading 050, join Victor-1, VorName, Victor-2, then..."I'm a few years out of practice, so I'm probably a bit rusty. The 90 degree intercept is just for discussion purposes.Steve Perry

[ahsmatt7 1,201]

Thanks guys, I've always tuned in the radials showing the TO arrow when traveling to them in the past. It just gets a little grey when following the FSX lessons (Yes, as the posts name, I went back to the basics :(). In the picture below you can see that I'm traveling southeast of the VOR but since I am heading 320° I would have that entered. The way some of the lessons seem to describe in the reading as well as my book (FSX bible) is they would show a pic something like I have but then say "Intercept and fly the 140° Radial until passing the VOR then fly outbound on the 320° radial".So due to that I thought that's how I should at least word it, glad it's not the case and I'm doing it right :Big Grin:Thanks a bunch, and thanks Matthew for the explanation of the airspace. I was including which airports to contact along the routes to get the transition, but most of the time I am well above 2500' over class D airspace so looks like I won't even need to call them :) One thing I like about the default ATC is being able to request transition and report clear. Thanks again

Not a problem! Im glad I could help! :( As long as you are above, below or around B,C or D airspace, you don't have to ask for clearance or transitions. to find out the shapes of the airspace in question, just look on the sectionals.

[Jack_C 1]

Hey Dan. Did you understand my description of the VOR? If you would like to get together on skype or something sometime and go through some things i would gladly help out. Usually we just press direct on the FMS in the NG but somehow I still remember how to do it the old school way. Age hasn't go the best of me yet..........YET. Let me know!Jack C

[Turbine777 13]

... The 90 degree intercept is just for discussion purposes.Steve Perry

Same as was what I was saying :(, haha, just kidding. Thanks Steve, that does indeed help and answers question 3. The only difference here is that I am just giving a brief from VOR to VOR for the most part, but copied the format that you wrote will try and implement it as much as possible. I also want the novices to be able to follow it as easy as possible so will probably keep it a little un-official also :wink:Thanks again!PS. Didn't you sing for Journey for a while? If so, you were by far the best vocalist they ever had :(

Hey Dan. Did you understand my description of the VOR? If you would like to get together on skype or something sometime and go through some things i would gladly help out. Usually we just press direct on the FMS in the NG but somehow I still remember how to do it the old school way. Age hasn't go the best of me yet..........YET. Let me know!Jack C

Thanks Jack, I understand it fully now. I know that it is the same invisible line in the sky, but tracking a from radial when traveling to one (The way it seems to read as I described above) is actually a bit different since you need to correct the opposite when chasing the radial. So in the picture above, if I was to say follow the 140 (from) while traveling to the VOR you would have to turn right, to intercept a left deflection. I think the part of the lessons that says to follow this way may have just been trying to show that, I really don't know.Thanks again!

Not a problem! Im glad I could help! :( As long as you are above, below or around B,C or D airspace, you don't have to ask for clearance or transitions. to find out the shapes of the airspace in question, just look on the sectionals.

Thanks Matthew, I found a diagram that shows what you explained, and the upside down cake :) I think I've been simming for about 10 years now and 99% of the time I just follow ATC or at least am above FL190 or so, it amazes me how much I forget since I just recently started simming closer to earth. For some reason I take a lot of fun in plotting my own courses now and have been loving learning chart reading. It's actually one of the things that got me interested in this hobby in the beggining. It's good to get back to the basics. Now if I could just get PMDG to make a single engine prop :Big Grin:Thanks again!

[ahsmatt7 1,201]

Same as was what I was saying :(, haha, just kidding. Thanks Steve, that does indeed help and answers question 3. The only difference here is that I am just giving a brief from VOR to VOR for the most part, but copied the format that you wrote will try and implement it as much as possible. I also want the novices to be able to follow it as easy as possible so will probably keep it a little un-official also :wink:Thanks again!PS. Didn't you sing for Journey for a while? If so, you were by far the best vocalist they ever had :wink:Thanks Jack, I understand it fully now. I know that it is the same invisible line in the sky, but tracking a from radial when traveling to one (The way it seems to read as I described above) is actually a bit different since you need to correct the opposite when chasing the radial. So in the picture above, if I was to say follow the 140 (from) while traveling to the VOR you would have to turn right, to intercept a left deflection. I think the part of the lessons that says to follow this way may have just been trying to show that, I really don't know.Thanks again!Thanks Matthew, I found a diagram that shows what you explained, and the upside down cake :) I think I've been simming for about 10 years now and 99% of the time I just follow ATC or at least am above FL190 or so, it amazes me how much I forget since I just recently started simming closer to earth. For some reason I take a lot of fun in plotting my own courses now and have been loving learning chart reading. It's actually one of the things that got me interested in this hobby in the beggining. It's good to get back to the basics. Now if I could just get PMDG to make a single engine prop :Big Grin:Thanks again!

Awesome! I love doing the low and slow every once in awhile. It can get interesting.

[Jack_C 1]

Yes the turn to intercept thing. Back in the training days they taught you to intercept at 90 degrees to the radial you are expected to track inbound on. Obviously in the real world, ATC will give you a heading to intercept a radial. Much easier. But going back to your verbage of "follow the 140 (from) while travelling to the VOR" is a bit confusing. Think of it as tracking inbound to the VOR ON the 140 degree radial. Like I said keep the train of thought "Outbound on top and inbound on bottom" which means if ATC says track OUTBOUND that means put the radial on the TOP of the VOR instrument. If ATC INBOUND put it on the bottom. If you remember that you will never go wrong. And here is where another step comes in.Lets say you are no where near the 140 radial. In fact lets say you have NO idea what radial you are on. If ATC says track to the station inbound on the 140 radial. So, Step 1) ATC said inbound therefore I will put the 140 on the bottom on the VOR instrument. Like I said before your heading in which you will finally steer is predicated on the number that is on the TOP of the VOR. Since you put 140 at the bottom, the number at the top will be 320. STEP 2) If the VOR needle is right, add 90 to the number at the top of the VOR (320+90=050). So fly 050 until the VOR needle centres then fly the heading of 320. Thats it! You are not flying a heading of 320 BUT tracking inbound on the 140 degree radial. IF the needle was left, you subtract 90 from the number at the top of the VOR (320-90=230). So fly heading 230 until the VOR needle centres then fly 320. Now like I said this is back in the training days of flying 90 degree intercepts to track a radial. If you want to intercept on a 45 degree heading then add/subtract 45 from the 320 in the example above. If you follow those steps, you can be severely disoriented and have no idea where you are but put the steps in play and you will find your way.I just wanted to clarify the phraseology you use when flying radial. So ATC will say "fly heading 360 to intercept the 140 radial inbound to the XXX VOR". They won't say "follow the 140 radial from the VOR"Jack C

[Tabs 2,790]

Dan,Just a quick aside here on your VOR radial questions...The simple answer on Question 1 is that you always enter your COURSE into the OBS. Using the term "heading" to describe what you enter into the OBS isn't correct because if there's wind, you're actually not going to be flying the same heading as the course actually is. There's a correction angle for the wind and you'll be crabbed to one side or the other of the course. (ie, you're tracking inbound on a 090 course (270 radial) to a VOR, but there's a strong wind from the south. You need to turn into that wind in order to actually remain on the 270 radial, so your actual heading could be something something like 093 or 095 etc) If you're going FROM the VOR, then the course you enter is the same as the radial you're on, but if you're going TO the VOR, then the course number is the reciprocal of the radial.To expand on what others said about Question 2: Radials aren't 360 individual signals coming out of a VOR - the whole thing is actually done by a pretty ingenious system of measuring the phase shift between two parts of the signal it sends out. So, if you can "receive the VOR", you're automatically able to select any radial - selection of the radial depends solely on the gauge in the aircraft, there's no communication between you and the VOR or anything like that. It's a purely passive system.More info on how VORs actually work technically here:http://en.wikipedia....range#OperationOn question 4, the standard nomenclature I've always seen for describing VORs and radials is like this:"PXR R-006" - that means Phoenix VOR, 006 degree radial. So for your first example, I'd say something like "Fly northwest to intercept the APR R-127 on 116.7"

[Jack_C 1]

Dan,Just a quick aside here on your VOR radial questions...The simple answer on Question 1 is that you always enter your COURSE into the OBS. Using the term "heading" to describe what you enter into the OBS isn't correct because if there's wind, you're actually not going to be flying the same heading as the course actually is. There's a correction angle for the wind and you'll be crabbed to one side or the other of the course. (ie, you're tracking inbound on a 090 course (270 radial) to a VOR, but there's a strong wind from the south. You need to turn into that wind in order to actually remain on the 270 radial, so your actual heading could be something something like 093 or 095 etc) If you're going FROM the VOR, then the course you enter is the same as the radial you're on, but if you're going TO the VOR, then the course number is the reciprocal of the radial.

Yes thats why I put in parenthesis in my first example (no wind). Its easier to leave the wind out of the equation when trying to get a grasp on the idea of how to track to and from VOR's. Besides, it's never windy, what are you talking about! lolJack C