Thanks Jack, I'm learning to talk it slowly but surely, it's funny but in my mind it's exactly like you said, but I guess when I write it I want to make sure others understand me. I am a bit confused though. Looking at the picture above with the one radial (ok two since there is a 140 & 320) and looking at where the plane is. To ease my slight confusion to what your saying (I'm sure it's just me, not you), what would you say was "On top" or dialed in on the NAV? Technically he/she/it would be on the 140° but I would normally be dialed into the 320°, therefore having a TO indication and keeping it simple. Is this not the case your explaining? (Please don't worry about how I worded it, and just look at the question, it's 2am here :( haha).Another question I should have asked in my original post about airspace.Question 5:Say you have gotten transition thru Class B airspace of one airport, but before you are clear you actually enter another airspace? This is probably different in the real world where you might talk to someone other than the individual Tower like in FSX.This picture shows the Class B space (Seen as D space in FSX):The blue is KSTL's Class B airspace. If you look right above V44 and near the blue route line you will see another Airport KSUS marked in a Blue "T".Now I can understand the fact that ATC personnel are sometimes the same, meaning sometimes the person that gives you IFR clearence may be the same person you talk to, to get your ground clearence, but in this case it is two different airports and I am talking to tower so it would have to be someone different. I am guessing this is an FSX limitation, but just because I got cleared thru ones airspace (from tower), how would the other know? I can't call him and I doubt the other tower would be so kind haha.Here is a pic showing KSUS Class D within KSTL's Class B.This pic was taken from the GPS (No I never use the GPS :() The dashed blue line is of course KSUS and the grey is the outline of KSTL's class B.Thanks again peops for the help!

Hi Dan and good morning! Time for bed for me too. Yes it sounds like you have it all mastered. On your example above you are right. You would have the 320 at the top and the 140 on the bottom because you are tracking Inbound on the 140. When it comes to the to/from flag don't use it as a starting basis when tracking VOR's. Use it as a confirmation. By this I mean set the required numbers on the VOR depending if you are tracking to and from the VOR and then verify with the flag that what you are trying to do is possible. Obviously ATC personnel are highly trained and don't give a messed up clearance but lets for example a controller was tired and gave you a bad clearance. We will use your picture in the example. ATC says "track inbound TO the VOR on the 320 radial". So with my steps we would set 320 on the BOTTOM since he said track INBOUND. Everything would look good so far since the needle would be centred but the flag would say FROM. So that clearance would make you scratch your head since he wants you to track TO but you are getting a FROM flag. So use the the flag indication as a verification that what ATC is telling you to do is possible. Does that make any sense?Jack C

Dan, I'd say something like "Fly northwest to intercept the APR R-127 on 116.7"

Thanks Ryan,I actually have that wiki page bookmarked hehe. I think people are off track on what my actual question was about VOR's. I understand them, I just don't understand what I read recently and wanted to find out how other pilots did a simple task or the simpler task. I never thought the wording would get me into so much trouble though, hahaha. Anywho, thanks for the explanations. I particularly liked the way you phrased that, it reads simple and is easily understood and best of all, it won't require I type a whole lot, hehe(that's all I want :).You actually reminded me of a question I have about FSX winds that I wanted to ask a lot lately. I don't know if I lost too many brain cells this month from drinking or if I just never noticed before but the winds in FSX and how they are meant to be read versus how the react are confusing the crap out of me... (I hope I can word this right, my brain-cell hurts).Wind:When FSX say "Wind 123 @ 7 kts" I have always read that as the wind is coming from that direction. So if I were to take off from an airport in that wind and they had a RWY 12 I would be on it (or landing). Is that not how the winds are? I ask this because ever since I started this small aircraft flying I seem to be getting all kinds of second guesses. Example, just now before I saw this post I was finishing a flight and heading 080, I was tracking a VOR radial also of 080 of course, but as you can see, no wind. A few minutes later I was drifting to the left (meaning the needle was going to the right and I was heading TO) but the wind was blowing "327 @ 11 kts". I should have had to crap to the left I would think, since the winds are coming from the left would they not be wanting to blow me to the right? Before I over explain I'll stop there hehe. Am I not reading it correct? Or is something just screwy here?Thanks again, I think I'll use that phraseology!

Hey there, now I come in way too late to this thread and I see quite everything has been answered so I thought I will just add my personal POV very briefly here. :blush:Q1I mostly agree with Ryan's rule, it's what I've been taught too. What you always set on the OBS/HSI is the course you want to fly.Radials are always meant as 'outbound' from the VOR, so R-140 is departing the VOR into direction 140, R-320 is departing the VOR into direction 320. If you're flying towards that very VOR from the SE on course 320 you will be on R-140 inbound (that might be European wording here but I thought it was worth to mention) and after passing the station you'll simply be on R-320. But since you're flying course 320 all the time, that is what you set. Just the flag will change from TO to FROM.Now flying HSI is even easier (or more confusing??), since it does not really matter what you set. Try to set 320 or 140, the result is the same. So try come from the south east flying inbound R-140 (=course 320) to the station but set 320 on the HSI. Why does it still work, while a normal VOR receiver would give you reversed indications? Because two things happen at the same time: You will get reverse sensing so the CDI will deflect into the opposite direction. But also: the whole pointer/CDI is reversed (the needle arrow is pointing down, towards 140!). Which cancels out the first effect, and you have correct deviation indications again. This is so cool that it would even work for the TO/FROM flag. It always points into the correct direction. I might add a few pics on this if I get the chance.Q2True, basically the so called "radials" are born inside your receiver. What you get from the station is a general signal so matter what radial you are on. Sometimes though a NOTAM might state something like this:XYZ VOR 114.05/CH87Y UNUSEABLE BTN 265 AND 310 DEGBut as explained this might be due to terrestial features.Q4Since you're flying IFR you will (should) always be in controlled airspace. ATC won't let you out since they obviously can't really guarantee for anything once they lose you on the radar. Again, talking Europe here. So there is never ever any need to care for any airspace transitions. IRL I don't even know what airspace I am flying in quite often... It's not even depicted on every chart. Flying VFR though you would need crossing clearances for C and D airspaces, and also A and B if they were used in my country haha! :( E is alright without clearance, F and G are uncontrolled anyways.There are extremly rare occasions where you enter uncontrolled airspaces as a IFR flight, and that would be for T/O or landing only at a very few smaller or little used airfields.

Wind:When FSX say "Wind 123 @ 7 kts" I have always read that as the wind is coming from that direction. So if I were to take off from an airport in that wind and they had a RWY 12 I would be on it (or landing). Is that not how the winds are? I ask this because ever since I started this small aircraft flying I seem to be getting all kinds of second guesses. Example, just now before I saw this post I was finishing a flight and heading 080, I was tracking a VOR radial also of 080 of course, but as you can see, no wind. A few minutes later I was drifting to the left (meaning the needle was going to the right and I was heading TO) but the wind was blowing "327 @ 11 kts". I should have had to crap to the left I would think, since the winds are coming from the left would they not be wanting to blow me to the right? Before I over explain I'll stop there hehe. Am I not reading it correct? Or is something just screwy here?Thanks again, I think I'll use that phraseology!

Wind direction is always where it comes from. So a southeastern wind will come from the SE and blow towards the NE. Not sure what happened in your case.RegardsEdit:Ok here's what I mean for the above, quick'n'dirty.Look at this, I am SE of some XYZ VOR course 320 inbound on R-140. Both the HSI and NAV (I will refer to the old school one simply as 'NAV') are set to course 320, both show I am on the radial and both show the TO flag.Now, let's say I have some bad north eastern wind blowing me off my radial. Both show the correct deflection, obviously.Now what happens if I set the actual radial (140) to the top of the instruments?Usually a bad idea, just want to show how 'smart' the HSI can be: The NAV will simply do what you told it to - it will think 'alright he wants to fly course 140... so I give him a FROM flag since from our present position, flying 140 the station is behind us. Furthermore we are off to the south east, that is right of R-140 (when looking into direction 140!!) so I give him a corresponding deviation'. Great huh? Everything's correct but doesn't make sense for flying. Remember, you always want to correct towards the CDI so a reversed indication is really gonna get you nowhere.Now the HSI basically does the exact same thing but has one cool advantage - you reverse the whole instrument upside down. So to YOU when looking at it the CDI will 'indeed' show the deflection reversed, but the whole needle is upside down too. That way the deflection is on the correct side again.Same goes for the TO/FROM flag. When you think of the needle arrow as the reference, you could think of the flag as a FROM flag since it's pointing into the opposite direction. But again, the whole thing is bottom up so it will still point to where the station actually is, and that is still in front of you. So in the end that kind of double reversion will still give you usable indications.Not sure if that makes sense but I thought it's always a good idea to fiddle around with your instruments trying to understand why it indicates this or that under some or other conditions.BTW, when trying this make sure you are really tuned to a VOR. Trying this with an ILS you will get very different results haha... Now can you think of why?

Thanks Jack, I'm learning to talk it slowly but surely, it's funny but in my mind it's exactly like you said, but I guess when I write it I want to make sure others understand me. I am a bit confused though. Looking at the picture above with the one radial (ok two since there is a 140 & 320) and looking at where the plane is. To ease my slight confusion to what your saying (I'm sure it's just me, not you), what would you say was "On top" or dialed in on the NAV? Technically he/she/it would be on the 140° but I would normally be dialed into the 320°, therefore having a TO indication and keeping it simple. Is this not the case your explaining? (Please don't worry about how I worded it, and just look at the question, it's 2am here :( haha).Another question I should have asked in my original post about airspace.Question 5:Say you have gotten transition thru Class B airspace of one airport, but before you are clear you actually enter another airspace? This is probably different in the real world where you might talk to someone other than the individual Tower like in FSX.This picture shows the Class B space (Seen as D space in FSX):The blue is KSTL's Class B airspace. If you look right above V44 and near the blue route line you will see another Airport KSUS marked in a Blue "T".Now I can understand the fact that ATC personnel are sometimes the same, meaning sometimes the person that gives you IFR clearence may be the same person you talk to, to get your ground clearence, but in this case it is two different airports and I am talking to tower so it would have to be someone different. I am guessing this is an FSX limitation, but just because I got cleared thru ones airspace (from tower), how would the other know? I can't call him and I doubt the other tower would be so kind haha.Here is a pic showing KSUS Class D within KSTL's Class B.This pic was taken from the GPS (No I never use the GPS :() The dashed blue line is of course KSUS and the grey is the outline of KSTL's class B.Thanks again peops for the help!

Usually, when you ask for a clearance through the Bravo airspace, you will be talking to TRACON ( approach control). IF you take off VFR from a controlled field in the Bravo airspace, Usually the airport's tower will coordinate something with the Controlling agency for thee Bravo airspace. This makes it easier for you and ATC. The tower will usually relay the clearance through the Bravo that he got from the controlling agency for you when you are on the ground because he talked to approach or departure control for you already. In the GPS picture, even though you are flying over the Delta airspace for KSUS, If you are not under 2500' AGL you are NOT in the Delta. You are however still in the Bravo. A sectional will tell you how high the airspace goes, how low they go and the shapes of the airspace. Delta airspace always starts at ground level....FYI.Also as a little tip,when wanting to learn about airspace, use the VFR sectionals and not the IFR enroute charts. everything is clearer when it comes to airspace on the vfr sectionals.

Thanks Etienne, I appreciate the screen shots and explanations. I reread some of what I wrote originally, and can see why people may think I'm asking how they work, but I just wanted to know if real pilots did it the way some material states. My VOR question is now fully answered and thanks for this example and the screenshots, it clarifies that I understood the others and will be great help to others finding this topic.I have not flown any aircraft yet that allow to rotation of the HSI, some allow the rotation of the Omnibearing pointer (arrow) but nothing else, at least not yet. I would imagine with the gauge flipped upside down the glideslop indication would travel upwards haha, but that's just a guess, as for just dialing in the RWY heading on the obs, that has no effect and from what I've always thought is it's just for a reminder of the runway heading.Thanks for confirming the wind direction, that's what I thought. It's weird that I never noticed before but flying the light aircraft seem to having me notice a lot of things I never did before. I normally just see that I am being blown off course and make corrections as needed. Sometimes I cheat and press Shift+Z to display the winds, this is when I noticed the problem. I'll be doing some flights later today and hopefully capture some of it. I have seen that the information in from the Shift+Z is almost always different than what ASE is telling me, but ATIS is usually in sync with ASE. I wonder if I am seeing FSX weather depiction but the plane is getting hit with what ASE is loading? I'll play around with it more later and hopefully have some screenies to help explain.Thanks again!

Thanks Matthew, I actually do use the VFR sectionals to get the airspace (well, since your original post :(). I actually think I've nearly memorized this site. For KSTL the class B is an 8000' ceiling, but there was nothing listed for KSUS, probably because it is within KSTL's class B. I should have mentioned that I meant if flying VFR. I know most of this talk and of course the topic title is about IFR but was wondering a "what if?" scenerio just in case. From looking at other smaller airports I seen a lot of there Class D being 2500' so no, you might not be above that altitude which again is why I asked. I figured it was just an FSX thing where you would talk to the tower themselves and do of course know that if I was IFR the transitions wouldn't be something I would generally have to deal with hahaha,,, sorry again, I should state exacts here but yes, I was talking if VFR for that case.I have always known the difference between VFR and IFR but in ALL of my FSX flights that are in VFR conditions (ALLLLLL), I still fly by my instruments. Once I finish mapping my route I do like to look at the map in satellite view and get some landmarks for certain things I may see along the way, but since I hate photo scenery with a passion I never fly VFR the way I would in real life. I guess this information should have been made known :(

Hey Dan,I have to apologize but please note English is not my first language so I might have expressed myself in a dangerously inappropraite manner LOL. I did NOT and never want you to turn the whole HSI "instrument". Please leave it firmly screwed to the panel. I really just meant the "inside" part, the yellow arrowed pointer with the course deviation indicator (CDI). I explained it the awkward way I did above simply because you rotate a bit more than with the conventional NAV receiver, where the actual CDI stays in place. When you turn the HSI knob you will turn the pointer with the CDI as well as the TO/FROM flag. If you like I could eventually show you via multiplayer what I meant but then again my point was really not that important (plus, Geez do I hate Gamespy). In the end, just remember to set the course you want to fly to the top of the instrument and you should be good to go for about 99.9% of the time. :Applause:By the way, KSUS is clearly not within the KSTL class B airspace as far as I can tell. Again, I am no US guy here so I am not familiar with their stuff. But I just checked Skyvector and I see KSUS has a small class D airspace around extending up to 3000', just where that very class B sector of KSTL starts (3000'-8000'). But it's definately not inside. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong. :blink:Look here and watch out for that dashed box reading "30" which I suppose is the class D upper limit. The eastern part of that very SUS class D is below the 30-80 sector of STL's class B, while the western part of the class D is under the 50-80 part of class B. :wink:Edit: Just as an addition as to why it's not within the class B... think of the upside down wedding cake! Look at the different sectors of the class B airspace, more importantly their respective altitudes (the big 80/50, 80/40, 80/35, 80/30..... etc numbers). Class D of SUS really is below the class B. :( You can't really tell from neither the GPS (shows sectors but no alitudes) nor the chart you posted though (shows not even sectors).

Hey Dan - The two airports have two entirely separate controllers. STL will have TRACON (Terminal Radar Approach Control) who is responsible for the aircraft enroute to and leaving STL. Their job is to transition airplanes from the enroute phase to the approach phase. Once the airplane is set up on the approach to the runway and prior to reaching the FAF, the approach controller will switch the pilot off to tower. KSUS is a class D airport with airspace from the surface up to but not including 3,000' (that's what that dashed line square around the 30 is just south and west of KSUS's runways). KSUS sits underneath one of STL's Bravo airspace shelves, which runs from 3,000' to 8,000' (if you follow the light blue ring it's nearly underneath you find the 80/30 sign, which means the upper limit is 8,000 and the lower limit of that particular shelf is 3,000'). Now if you are a VFR pilot on with ATC transitioning through the area, you have two options - you can hang out low underneath the upside-down wedding cake of STL's Bravo airspace and it's "shelves" OR you can receive bravo clearance from that same approach controller and go through Bravo. If you decide to hang out low and shoot underneath bravo, then you will not need clearance into the bravo airspace, BUT you might need to establish two-way radio contact between the delta airspace tower controller. Since the approach controller can't clear you into airspace that isn't his, he will hand you off to the tower. Then, when you're through delta, then the tower dude will hand you back off to approach. It's all rather complicated, and the easiest solution is to just avoid the whole mess altogether!! Haha.

Thanks Paul, that's awesome info. I am learning the charts, infact I've been reading all night (the last 4 hours). "Avoid the whole mess altogether" sounds good to me haha. I just wanted to add things for the pilots flying it, to bring them into something they may have never done before and to break up to boredom of watching a couple silly little needles :wink:I'm going to leave the ones I have done, now that I corrected them but for the new routes I think I'll leave most of it up to the individual to either look at their charts or GPS.I have a ball doing the planning and I know a lot of people that would be interested in this spreadsheet probably don't haha. So other than the directions and freqs, I might add a twist hear and there :)Hi Etienne, Thanks again for the education. I actually just figured out the upside down cake thing in 2D mode earlier for the 1st time, haha. I've never looked at charts as much as I have been lately or the GPS. It took me a few head tilted stares before I saw the cake pattern and noticed the different fraction looking altitudes in each ring on the VFR sectional, such as: 50----SFCHard to show what I mean in type without a pic, but you all know what I mean, hehe.I still have a ton of chart questions but have learned a **** ton today from reading and doing and correcting (and correcting, and correcting) my routes :(

Dan,The one issue you are having with the Class D with overhanging Class B is that your first picutre for Q5 was the IFR En Route. Once you start flying IFR, all that airspace goes away. You are either in regulated airspace, or you aren't and your do what you are told. You never hear "cleared into class B" again. Once I got my IFR ticket, I filed IFR to fly 20 miles. (Of course, part of that is because I'm based inside the idiotic Washington DC defense zone, so, they aren't real friendly with VFR.) If you look at the VFR sectional, then it becomes clearer. Remember that usually Class B exlcudes that which is in Class D. (For example my home port has a class D where half of it is one ring of class B and half in another. Above the outer ring is a 500 foot Class E area where you could legally fly without talking to anyone (aside from the DC issue above). The other half is essentially a carve out from the Dulles class B. Check out the space around KHEF in a vFR sectional and you'll see what I mean. I would also slightly disagree with the comment that the TRACON will relay clearance into the Class D. Maybe that happens VFR, but I would expect that they would either hand you off to the tower or recommend that you go around or over the Class D. IFR, they'll almost certainly keep you above the bugsmashers since they have no control over what's going on there. As for the original VOR question, I would add as color commentary, that aside from the official terminology batted around, how you get there is largely a matter of personal preference. Some people don't like when they have inverse inflection, some people don't care. Personally, I always like to be navigating to my next spot, if possible, rather than away from my previous spot. If you stay in the airway, it really doesn't matter how.

Thanks for the clarification Doug. I've learned a lot and yes you are 100% correct in the VFR chart showing what I needed and was expecting to see on the other. Learning charts is pretty fun. I can't wait to hopefully someday go for my license. I started going for my PPL back in 1988 and wish things worked out differently, I know I would have at least my IFR by now and would be loving life (ok, loving it more than now :().As for the spreadsheet, I know people will be out there that will want to fly it their own way, but then again I think most of those individuals won't be downloading the files either hehe. For the ones that do and want to do it their own way, that's why I have a section where I am listing the waypoints in two seperate ways. The airway method (KSPI V9 STL V14 SGF) and with a complete list of the waypoints ( KSPI WAVLY LOFTY FASHE ELDON STL DERDF STEER VIH REBBS STOUT STEME LANEZ SGF KSGF) for those that prefer manual entry of everything. I am also listing it in a way that if people want to view the route on Runwayfinder then they can just copy and paste it (KSPI;WAVLY/F;LOFTY/F;FASHE/F;ELDON/F;STL/V;DERDF/F;STEER;VIH/V;REBBS/F;STOUT/F;STEME/F;LANEZ/F;SGF/V;KSG).I like to do this since its fun to look at the satellite imagery and note key visuals and then see them approaching in the sim.I understand there is no way to satisfy everyone and I really don't care to. I aim to satisfy as many with my free time as I can think of and the others can do whatever they want, as long as they don't whine to me about it :Big Grin:The idea of this was at first for FSPassengers, for those that are building their own company with this addon and forced to start out very light (single prop). It takes a boat load of flights before you'll ever get into a PMDG prop (which is one reason I'm always begging for a PMDG C172 :(). In my virtual CO. I currently have 65 hours in the C182 and 29 hrs in the Mooney. I only have $800,000.00 currently and will be buying the Beech Baron 58 next to at least fly more passengers for faster coin. The JS41 is $5,000,000.00 average so despite the fact that I have attained a high enough rank to fly jets, I still need the cash. Anywho, I have changed things around and made the flights longer just so others here might find it interesting for a JS41 or even MD11 flight. Of course since I really enjoy learning, figure others might find the step by step useful, again for the ones that won't, I can care less :(. Because if all I flew was heavies, this type of state to state flying probably wouldn't interest me in the least.

Hi again another short and sweet bit about transitioning Bravos. I have flown the NY class B on the Hudson route from NJ. Our transition to Bravo airspace is the Verrazano Bridge so we check in with Newark Airport prior to that point, on our way north up the Hudson near 24t st. we're handed off to LGA tower for the trip north to the Central park crossing and stay with him until we are handed back to EWR prior to Governors island. You ask for clearance through the B once at Verrz checkpoint and are handed tower to tower as long as you remain in the B. You are cleared out of the Bravo when done, it is a lot simpler than it sounds.

Yes, I should clarify, all my comments are assuming you're flying VFR with VFR flight following. Now, if you're flying IFR through that airspace, it's more than likely that ATC's going to vector you around. It's very unlikely that ATC will put you low enough to clip that delta airspace. BUT, in the extremely rare case that would happen, the TRACON cannot just clear you through their airspace. Even on IFR, TRACON does not have control over all airspace. STL's airspace belongs to them, and any other towered airport belongs to that airport. The two have to coordinate "handoffs", so that everybody knows who's coming and who's going. Because that involves two phone calls (one from TRACON to tower when the plane is entering, then the other from tower to TRACON when the plane is leaving and going back to tracon's airspace), ATC will avoid clearing you through that airspace to save time and resources. Like I said, it's all very complicated for the pilot and ATC. It's a good thing I'm reviewing all of this, tomorrow I have to fly to Chehalis (KCLS) and Harvey Field (S43). Harvey Field is right under a bravo shelf of KSEA, so it's nearly the exact situation we're talking about. Going to be interesting!!

Thanks Karl,That's great info, I appreciate the explanation. I actually imagined it might go something very similar to exactly the way you described.Thanks Paul,I'm glad you have described things in a VFR way because even though this is instrument talk, I still usually fly VFR, I always fly by them and think that even if I were a real pilot would on the clearest of days. I would be flying VFR but I would most likely have a full IFR plan/route on my kneeboard. For example, the other day I was flying from KLWM to KBVT. I planned it IFR and made it a point not to look at the weather since I wanted to just experience it as it happened. After I plan the route I look over the VFR map and look to see if there would be any helpful places, mountain tops, rivers, valleys etc.. to bypass some of the zig zaggin I was going to do. In this flight I saw that I was going about 15 miles out of my way when I could just follow the highway for that leg and save some time. Of course with the low clouds in VT I was lucky to have already had the IFR data ready to go, a sort of contingency at the least. Good luck with your flights tomorrow. Bring a camera, I would love to see a picture of what KSEA's class B airspace looks like in real life!(Kidding of course :()