"How many improvements on Flight Simulator 9 were CONSUMER driven? Dynamic Weather? Improved ATC? Multiple Runways? Better Sky and Shading? Taxiway Signs? Were all these not included in a long laundry list of what we would all have liked to see in FS2002. Yet, because Microsoft waited until FS2004 to bring them to the table, they are callous and non responsive. "Um...I think it's called "evolution". They absolutely HAVE to improve things, or noone would buy the stuff. They gotta keep up with other games, and they seem to keep up graphically, but they fail at other points. I really don't care about rushed releases, or that MS wants to make money, or that MS programmers are brilliant people. That's just the way it is, it's the same with many companies. So, I for one really have nothing against MS as a whole.But let's take Flight unlimited 3: It featured good graphics, a lovely flight model and good weather effects, and that's 4 years ago. The rain effect was 10x better than the blurry "raindrops" in FS9, the fd's were (in)credible, sound was very good, etcetcetc. and they actually released UPDATES! Wow. Those were the days! It ran well on my trusty old Voodoo2, btw.(Maybe I should install it again. I really loved that one...)Unfortunately Looking Glass went broke as we know, for whatever reasons...they had terrific games like thief, terra nova, the FU series. And now I'm stuck with MS, what a shame :-D

>But let's take Flight unlimited 3: It featured good graphics,>a lovely flight model and good weather effects, and that's 4>years ago. The rain effect was 10x better than the blurry>"raindrops" in FS9, the fd's were (in)credible, sound was very>good, etcetcetc. and they actually released UPDATES! Wow.>Those were the days! It ran well on my trusty old Voodoo2,>btw.Landscapes looked like pastel chalk drawings, the old FS2K Mt. Rainier was much better, the Lake amphibian had glide capabilities that exceeds most gliders, the cumulous clouds looked very cartoonish, most panels & aircraft exteriors were "crude" when it comes to graphics........but the raindrops looked great, considering Looking Glass only had to worry about two cities & area's in between.L.AdamsonP.S. --- since you say you're stuck with MS, then buy X-Plane..... I did..It has it's hit's and misses too...............just like every flightsim title I've ever run across!

I agree with you John about being more tactful when handling Microsoft. I just wish we could reach them to work with them... The silent none responsive treatment isn't good for both sides. Greg makes a good point in what he said above and I totally agree...

At least X-Plane get's updated free of charge, you can actually reach the development team and get info on future updates... You know X-Plane might one day become real competition for Flight Simulator based solely on the fact they listen to people. If that sim could get the community that FS has garnered over the years, X-Plane would be a force not to be reckoned with. Better yet it would be a sim designed by simmers for flight simmers and real pilots alike (I know if things got too big Bill Gate would buy them out anyway). All they need to do is update the graphic engine to bring it on par with at least FS2k2.Larry, nothing beats good support and customer relations... How you treat people is what matters in the end. Your attitude seems to stem from the fact you really don't think anything meaningful can be done to improve relations with MS, and why it's just a game anyway. What you don't understand is if relations with Microsoft stays on this course and/or get's worse you will see this community embrace the competition. Our support is the reason Flight Simulation is where it is today. If we didn't buy, support, design, and build on this sim, it would not have survived the 15-20 years it's been out. Do you think we couldn't do the same with X-Plane??? Flight Simulator can be replaced and with a talented community such as ours it would be for the better for all of us because then we would have more influence than we do now... You all know I for one didn

Well, considering that it came out last millenium ;) the graphics are very good. I don't think FS2000 graphics were any better in any respect. Of course, it has it's limitations. But the aircraft never allowed me to "stall" the aircraft to 100000ft :-S, and they released a big patch. I would've loved to see FU4...X-Plane is nice, I loved the shadow of the clouds I saw in a video once. I even built an experimental aircraft for version 5 or so...which was cool. I think I'll try the NEWEST demo (UPDATE) right now ;)

I don't understand MicroSoft in this respect. The ATI driver team is over at the rage3d forums mixing it up with the fans all the time. They're very helpful and they're paying attention. That's confirmed in each driver release. It makes for people feeling good about the company. MicroSoft needs the PR just like any other company. If I feel good about a company, I'm more likely than not to do that software upgrade a bit sooner. Nvidia seems to have the same stance. You never see their tech guys mixing it up in the forms with the fans. What's up with these guys. You'd think they'd see the advantage to being here.

Only one solution here; if you are not happy with the lack of support don't buy the next version, if you are happy with the support being given buy the next version. The only way to change the way Microsoft supports (or doesn't support) their simulator is for users to not continue buying the software. Use the last version, and don't get sucked into the neverending pay as you go patches for the simulator. I for one am finished paying to be a beta tester, and then not having a patch released but a completely new version of the software (see FS2002). I refuse to upgrade my hardware every two years to play a $60.00 (US) game. I've got a x-mas list for my wife that is over $1000.00 of hardware just to get better frame rates out of my 2 year old computer. That is a vicious cycle that will be stopping in my house. Yeah, I'm going to buy a faster video card, but not for FS, I'm getting it for Quake 3. :-) Dropping the new motherboard and cpu from my list, I'll just live with my 1.6ghz for a while longer.Just my 2 cents.FYI...My system:ASUS A7V266AMD Athlon 1800XP+Corsair 512MB PC21002 80gb Hitachi 7200rpm IDE drivesATI Radeon 8500 w/64mb SDRAM (soon to be ATI Radeon 9800XT w/256mb DDR)Windows XP ProfessionalRedHat Linux 9

If this is a bug in Microsoft's product, isn't it interesting that Nvidia resolved the problem with their latest drivers.When this problem first surfaced, I explained to people why this is NOT a bug in CoF. The code that is used to implement menus has been in use via the Windows API for years. The fact that the latest Nvidia drivers resolve the issue for Nvidia issues means that the issue was in fact a video driver issue.I feel bad for ATI users because their problems are harder to take than what Nvidia users encounter, but that doesn't make it Microsoft's problem. If I were you, I'd keep the pressure on ATI.If I get frustrated by my truck getting out of alignment while driving on roads full of potholes, I sure won't be raising cain with Chevy! Jim

Greg, A minor amount of research on your assertions would prove to you that you are absolutely wrong. I can only surmise that you make these accusations with no foundation.When asked to trust in the business advice of "Greg from the FS forum" or "Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer", I know where my money's going.Jim

O.K. everyone, this thread has gone on long enough, who's for going in with me and organizing a signed petition on behalf of the whole community. We would need the support of the freeware/payware developers to get the SDK's out and sites like Avsim, Flightsim.com, and Simflight (to name a few) to back us up on FS2k4 receiving a patch/service pack for FS2k4 (FDE fix, dancing mountains, etc.). This is totally a peaceful agenda that with enough support, I'm sure we'll finally hear and/or get some action from Redmond. It would take all of us to stand together on this one, I mean the whole community has to get involved to get FS2k4 to really be the sim it should be (hopefully)...1. Les Dillon New Hope, Minnesota...

This logic is flawed. I can see the conversation now:MICROSOFT: "Well, ATI, we are seeing flickering menus on ATI drivers. The software still works great and the flight experience is awesome, but these daggone flickering menus are still there."ATI: "We see them, too. We are thinking about fixing that issue within a year or so. Who knows. We are telling people it's fixed in the 3.8 drivers, but it's really not. We don't know for sure when we'll fix it."MICROSOFT: "Okay. Well, we'll hold off on releasing any new games until you let us know that this issue is fixed. No problems. Just keep us informed."Give me a break! You assume that because there is an issue with ATI drivers that it's Microsoft's fault! When I first installed the latest version of Rainbow Six, it crashed (CRASHED, not just some annoying flicker) everytime a guy was killed. Why? The latest (at the time) Nvidia drivers caused it when AA was enabled. Was that the Rainbow Six's fault? No. It was Nvidia's, and they've since corrected it.There was a huge traffic jam on the way to work today. A big wreck on the highway. Why did Microsoft let that happen?Jim

"If this is a bug in Microsoft's product, isn't it interesting that Nvidia resolved the problem with their latest drivers."Hmmm... interesting logic you're using there. Let's see, Nvidia fixed the problem, and ATI will be forced to in the future. Which begs the question... did ATI and nVidia create the bug? Or Microsoft?Your assumption that just because the hardware manufacturers resolve a problem with a new driver release means the problem was originally theirs is flawed. The problem didn't arise until the release of Microsoft's latest sim. And even if it is purely a driver issue, why didn't Microsoft do a btter job of coordinating their new product with their hardware partners and existing drivers during the beta stage?

Greg; glad you responded to that so gently. I was getting ready to do some real polite ripping. But, I'll go with what you said.

You ignore the fact that the code that renders menus is very common and in use in all MFC applications. It's not a menuing issue. It is a display driver issue.No one ever said that Microsoft DIDN'T see the issue when in testing. However, the issue was not theirs to fix. If it were my decision, I surely wouldn't stop shipment of FS9 on the basis of this problem.The fact that these "anomolies" are not shared between different hardware manufacturers (ATI and Nvidia) indicates that your assertion that this is a Microsoft bug is unfounded.Jim

And why shouldn't he have? I attacked his argument, not him. Amazing.Jim