>The sim has already been dubbed down to appeal to the>casual simmer. >And exactly how has it been dumbed down? By adding better weather capability, better Autogen, better ATC, better mesh scenery, better graphics, more capability for scaling for the capability of different computers, etc?Don S.

Are you serious? Microsoft has no control over ATI's code, Greg. Microsoft doesn't write their drivers, and they surely aren't responsible for resolving problems with them.This entire topic has gotten surreal. I just cannot believe the posts I'm seeing here. Incredible.Jim

Jim,I hate to say this, but this entire discussion has flown right past you. What you are seeing in this and other fora (and indeed in homes and businesses throughout the world) is a general discontent with Microsoft because of widespread feelings of disenfranchisement amongst their customers.I never said that Microsoft is responsible for writing (or resolving issues with) anybody's drivers. Not in a single post.My point in my previous post (and others here) is that Microsoft surely knew during the beta stage about these glaring issues with ATI 9xxx cards and/or drivers. The $64,000 question is why didn't they move to resolve the issues (with or without direct interaction with ATI) before their product was released this summer? Why didn't Micrsoft do a better job of working with their "partner" ATI to preclude these issues from ever being seen by the public. Flickering screens and smearing text are things that are difficult to miss. Yet, Microsoft seemingly did.This incident (and others) tend to make Mr. Ballmer's recent declaration to "strengthen the relationship with our partners and customers" ring hollow. Hopefully, Microsoft will indeed succeed in strengthening those relationships.. for the sake of everyone.

That sounds very much like a z-buffer issue to me. I don't think it's FS's fault.

I find it curious that you have publicly called for Microsoft to correct this issue (and criticized them for not doing so), yet you have not once called for ATI to correct it, AND IT'S THEIR PROBLEM!I cannot debate you, Greg, because you are not using a logical argument.Jim

"I cannot debate you,"You've already proven that fact.You have a unique ability to read what you wish into others comments.Your ability to debate any issue is restricted by your lack of objectivity (though you actually believe you are objective)... and a terrible weakness in failing to grasp your opponent's point. Case in point is Elrond's contention about MS's security philosophies. He gladly presented links to others' perspectives on the issue, you on the other hand took the unsubstantiated position that he was wrong... offering no facts.You have throughout this "debate" (it wasn't such, Jim) railed me for asking the simple question of "why"? You have read numerous things into that simple question, yet offered no valid explanations. On the other hand, your replies have proven only that you are a MS a really excited user and openly contentious of anyone who questions your heroes.That you believe Microsoft is a wunderkind company is your opinion. You're entitled to it, just as those who might disagree with you have the right to their opinions. This is the part that you have really butchered here. Inferring that those who might question Microsoft and some of their business practices are in some way responsible for the decay of Americam society (re: your "tragic move for our society" comment in the other thread) only proves your lack of perspective.So, I hate to be the one to tell you, but this hasn't been any kind of debate. It's just been a troll session you brought into this discussion. Nothing more, nothing less.Better hurry along now, Jim. It's got to be getting close to the time of day that you present yourself at the gates of the empire to evoke your blind devotion and loyalty. And that, too, is your right.Regards,

Shame on you, Greg. This hasn't been a debate only because you have taken the childish approach of attacking me and calling me names because I disagree with your point of view. That is a certain sign of someone who is unsure of their position and unable to substantiate it.Jim

hmmm... interesting. i Did Not have Any terrain shimmering and Very Little shimmering on the buildings in fs2002. the shimmering is 3x worse in fs2004 with the Mip-map slider maxxed(for me anyway). also, isn't fs2004 using the same Core engine that fs2002 used? btw, i had the mip-mapping slider Maxxed in fs2002 as well. and i'm using the 9700 with Identical ATI control panel settings in both games. happy flyin, fm

DanielBu this problem is MS's fault...

"This hasn't been a debate only because you have taken the childish approach of attacking me and calling me names because I disagree with your point of view. That is a certain sign of someone who is unsure of their position and unable to substantiate it."No, Jim, it was never a debate because you have consistently failed to offer any proof that those who don't agree with you are incorrect in their perceptions. Your sole purpose for being here (and the other thread) is to cause trouble and do what you can to derail the discussion.When will you offer ANYTHING of substance to refute our perceptions (both of Microsoft... and you)?

An entertaining post to say the least :)>Microsoft on the other hand won't even respond to the millions>of request from paying customers about patching their product.Millions of request(s)? Aren't you exaggerating just a little bit here? We are talking about a flight simulator----------------------> I feel people should redirect their>frustration toward Microsoft to fix this and the other many>issues people are reporting (dancing mountains, performance>with autogen, SDK releases, etc.)... I feel the screen>flickering is not an issue ATI should address considering>Nividia and ATI video cards were the standard for most flight>sim users at the release of FS2k4.What technical data did you base these assumptions on? What market research indicated that Nividia (sic) and ATI cards were the standard? Did this research give you the ratio of Nvidia to ATI?----------------------> Release the SDK's....... It almost seems>Redmond would be happier developing FS for an XBOX or>Playstation (another users request) versus a PC. To release a>product and not offer any other support for it is no better>than what they do for their counsel games. Maybe there are commercial reasons for delaying the release of the SDKs. Not sure about the XBOX but it wouldn't surprise me.From what I have seen in the Microsoft knowledgebase there is support happening.-----------------------> Bear in mind I>hope this is not a hidden agenda with the boys/girls up in>Redmond but support from them has not been looking so good.Hidden agenda, oops look out reds under the bed, where is Senator McCarthy these days?------------------------ The only support for FS2k4 that we have received>thus far is from our own community. I don't think anyone has>heard a real word from Microsoft about anything since FS2k4's>release (please correct me if I'm wrong) and I'm not talking>about the technet acknowledgement of problems but rather true>support...You are wrong. Technet consideration of problems is how Microsoft supports product. I'm sure if you call support and lodge a request and pay money (like professionals do) then you will get better support.-----------------------------The ATI problems are unique to ATI hardware and therefore require a fix from ATI. ATI have been problematic from the days of the Rage IIC cards. Beg borrow or steal (I didn't say that) an Nvidia card, doesn't need to be the latest and greatest, and try again - you'll be surprised.If not, then by all means return the product for a refund.And before anyone says anything, I do not work for Microsoft and all messages suggesting this will be ignored so don't waste the bandwidth.

"Beg borrow or steal (I didn't say that) an Nvidia card, doesn't need to be the latest and greatest, and try again - you'll be surprised."No thanks... been there, done that. And not going back any time soon.Cheers,

"No thanks... been there, done that. And not going back any time soon."Well you are obviously not happy with the product so why don't you return it?

You assume I'm unhappy with the ATI card. I never said I was unhappy with it. To the contrary, I believe it is very good... much better than any of the Nvidia cards (3 on other systems). For my eyes the ATI image quality is better than Nvidia.The only issue remaining for the ATI cards is the screen flickering during menu changes. This has no impact on the simming experience itself.Enjoy your Nvidia card. I've owned enough of them over the past several years to know that I'm ready for what ATI offers.

____________________________________________________________________You assume I'm unhappy with the ATI card. I never said I was unhappy with it. To the contrary, I believe it is very good... much better than any of the Nvidia cards (3 on other systems). For my eyes the ATI image quality is better than Nvidia.____________________________________________________________________You ever notice how they all jump when someone mentions a problem they're having with an ATI card? Most of the time that problem is solved quickly and ends up being the fault of other system components or settings. As I've said before, I bought my 9700 Pro in September of 2002. Having it in my computer is kinda like having a porsche in the garage. Once you've seen one in action, there's no going back.There's no way I'd ever buy another Nvidia product for gaming. That company has pretty much destroyed itself over the past year. Just a matter of time now. ATI is taking much of their business away and Nvidia's credibility is in the toilet. Unlike ATI who came up with a completely new card, Nvidia just kept remaking the same old card over and over again and putting a different name on it. Sooner or later their customers will wise up and go elsewhere.