"Well I hope there are more instances of the useful ones."Usually, yes."You say you've bought MS products for years. And you still don't realize that the general public is the biggest beta tester out there? It's been that way for years with MS and it isn't going to change until we change. The sad part is....It's never going to change. And part of that is becuase we as users have to come to accept the relese of a product follwedby updates and patches. I'm sorry Greg but that is, was and always will be part of this wonderful world of computing."I agree entirely. It is us the consumers who have to stop buying their products before they'll start to listen. Sadly, they are still a monopoly. Fact of the matter is, if you want to compute you have to pay at least some of your money to MS."Is it capturing the market as you say or just the fact that noone stepped up to the plate to offer a viable alternative?. Are we to blame Mr. Gates for what he has done or should we blame others for not giving him any competition? You may want to suck it up a tad though as I feel you, me and everyone else is going to be stuck with MS for a long time to come. That "Perch" is way to wide for them to fall off of any time soon."Mr. Gates has been known to use some rather creative techniques when acquiring technology for his products. It was our fault that we have allowed it to happen. And I have to agree with you about being stuck with MS for a long time... though it is indeed frustrating to deal with them. Again, at some point in time folks will say enough and start taking action against them.Cheers,

"Maybe We Should Have the Govenator(Arnold)to call MS on our behalf."Now that's a good idea :D"When ever I read these heated postings I always think of the comic book salesman from the tv show The Simpsons." heheYou know, what we really need is an insurance for computer games, so they'll be forced to fix the issues ;)Seriously though, we pay for this stuff, so they should show a little more support. Whether it's MS or some other company, they can't avert releasing buggy software, but they can fix some of the bugs, at least the ennoying ones. It's just a part of the business.

"As users have to come to accept the relese of a product follwedby updates and patches."The topic at hand here Bobby is there is no 'followedby' when it comes to FS2k2 or FS2k4. There is no patches and updates, better yet no one has heard anything official from Microsoft on what's next for FS2k4.... Developers are having to wing it with their FS2k4 updates (to stop our whining) without the proper SDK information. MS started this arrogant attitude back with FS2k2 and now it's carrying over to FS2k4 (at least we have SDK's for FS2k2). Now if Microsoft has stated they fully support add-on developers, one would think the SDk's would have been released by now... You call support and you have some guy right out of high school reading you cue cards, he has no idea what's going on... I'm fine with your statement above as long as a developer in question supports their product. At this point Microsoft is no better than these add-on developers we talk so bad about. They just through this Sim out there and moved on...We should really stop criticizing various add-on developers until we address the source, better yet the biggest culprit. Why come down on the little guys and find excuses for Microsoft. There is always someone out there trying to defend them...

Flynman2 whenever your ready to go to Redmond, I'm with you... Just say the word...

Yellow5, that's why we should speak out in a serious manner (read flynman2's post above) so we don't look like a joke and continue on this downward spiral of a relationship with Microsoft... I for one would hate to see this kind of treatment or worse being dealt to us when FS2006 hits the streets...People are dealing with this kind of treatment no matter what software they're using from Microsoft. It could be Windows, Office, etc, if Microsoft doesn't feel like doing their job they won't and no one can make them. Talk to the guy who has attained his MCSE certification in WindowsNT only to find Microsoft has pulled it and said that training is no longer valid... They control too many critical things in society to have this kind of attitude with the paying public and at some point it has to stop. So our gripes are not a small issues in any since of the word...

Sorry, but this is so lame on MSFSs part, it really is.It is not only the ATI cards that suffer from this, NV cards exhibit menu flicker as well when using different combinations of AA & switching from fullscreen to window and back etc.One would think MSFS-team would have made sure that this was resolved before release regardless if even both manufacturers have this problem vs. the software. If. if that

>There is a growing discontent among many long time users as>well as developers with the lack of a response/respect and>patience is wearing thin.>>That

It

Larry...What Paul said.

"There is a growing discontent among many long time users as well as developers with the lack of a response/respect and patience is wearing thin."...What have I been saying this past few days? It's happening and it is both worrying and so sad. Microsoft have the solution in there hands if they could be persuaded to find a way to shake off this stupid shortsighted complacency before it's too late. I do believe it could happen if the pressure from communities such as ours is both persistent and strong enough.Mike

Nope, Im not buying it.(HAH!) If I bought a new ford, and the motor ran at half the advertised power, Id be ######. If I bought a Vacume cleaner that was supposed to suck, and it wouldent becouse "I dident have the right floor", That would blow. I'v had FS, FS95, 98, 2000, 2002,and now 2004. and every one has been flawed to some extent.its not that the programs dont improve, It just that I have to pay $50.00 for each patch. I think 2004 is an Amazing program, Heck I loaded fs95 yesterday just to compare. Wow, Weve come a long way. BUT: The lack of response from Microsoft to respond to some known, and obvious problems, AND FIX THE PROBLEMS!!!!! sucks. Bad Public Relations. But, par for the course. Well get a patch, just send in your fifty bones.

That's why we should stop talking and start doing something Mike... Between myself and flynman2 (read his post above), maybe we could raise a fund to help as many fly out to Redmond and protest Microsoft's handling of it's customers. At least we could raise a petition and go from there... Anything is better than sitting here on these forums writing about it (I always think of the comic book salesman from the tv show The Simpsons - yellow5) while Microsoft runs away with our hard earned money... If they were any other company (Wilco, Perfect Flight, Papa Tango, etc.), Avsim, Flightsim.com, and others would have said or done something by now...

Oh another Microsoft Slam. Oh yes, the big boys at Microsoft are so callous and unconcered with the quality of their product.Wait... What was that I saw at the AVSIM conference???? Not one, but TWO MS developers. A test lead, and The product manager.I worked as a tester at Microsoft in the Games department for over a year under contract. I for a fact KNOW that they listen to their customers.I spent 1 week behind one way glass, bringing in countless people to perform UI testing to see if the UI for my project was "intuitive" enough. I witnessed hundreds of people being brought in a week to play not only Microsoft Games but competitors games. They play some, give an opinion, and walk out with free software for their trouble.I pored over thousands of bug reports from beta testers with comments from half saying the game was "too easy" to others saying it was "too hard". Comments on everything from uniform color to the specs of the T-34.And worked in the compatibility lab in which my game was running simultaneously on over 30 systems at a time, each with a different video card. Each one being evaluated to see the differences.Vent all you want, but the DRIVERS are the Card manufacturers responsibility, plain and simple. Microsoft validates drivers with the WHQL program, but the actual development of the drivers are done by the manufacturer of the card.I have many friends still at Microsoft, they are amongst the brightest, hardest working, most dedicated individuals I have ever had the pleasure to work with. They put in VERY long hours and contrary to popular belief, are not paid that much. Especially considering the cost of living around Redmond. In fact, now that the "options" well has dried up, their salary is going to have to go up.I understand your venting, and your frustration, but your accusations are simply ignorant. Besides, the entire REASON Microsoft products have become so popular is because each version contains enhancements that have been suggested BY THEIR USERS. It was WordPerfect and LOTUS 123 Inability to address their customers needs that allowed Office to take over, Not just PC's but Macs as well.The constant patching and security updates, are part of a continual effort to shore up security on their OS products. A year ago, Bill Gates made Security a number 1 priority. THIS is why you see all the updates. NT 4.0 had it's share of holes too, but since Microsoft wasn't fixing them weekly, they had no exposure.Many of the "hackers" out there, actually scan windows update, find a fix, then reverse engineer a virus to attack the weakness, betting that the end user won't bother to fix it. So Microsoft gets blamed for the Security Hole, when it is the FIX that alerts everyone else to it's existence.And all this fixing, goes into the database to make the next version of Windows that much better. (Windows ME was an aborration and a Marketing mistake on the scale of Microsoft BOB)Windows 2000 is head and shoulders above Windows NT. Windows XP is head and shoulders above Windows 98. And Windows 2003 kicks Windows 2000 in the butt.Yeah. Microsoft Sucks. If you want a REAL consumer oriented company, try Sun. Yeah. That's nice. No way to change resolutions of the video card on the fly in Solaris. Each Video card has it's own unique configuration with no standardization of commands. And Solaris is just so EASY to use.... Or how about MAC. There you go. Mac....Must be nice to be told by Apple what hardware you have to buy. I know most MAC fans are just thrilled that they have to spend a premium on a video card or memory because of the Mac's "open" archetecture. You might complain about Microsoft's "bugs" or "drivers" or other such inconveniences as you type on your $500.00 computer made possible only because Microsoft's OS is designed around an open architecture in which you are free to buy your own CPU, own Motherboard, Own Memory, Own Video Sub system, Own soundcard, and shop around to get the cheapest or best that you desire.Sure, MacOS X and Solaris don't have a lot of bugs. But with those operating systems you are pretty much tied to a static set of hardware. Kind of makes it easy to write an OS when you force your customer to buy only YOUR hardware...Just a couple of things for those of you quick to criticize to gnaw on.

Well, Will, I'm not surprised by your post.Let me point out some basic principles of business to you. #1 Microsoft is not responding to their customers needs... if they were their customers would know about it. First! Microsoft has a habit of responding to what it wants to respond to... simple as that. It's a cultural thing with them. They believe they know more about what the customer needs than the customer. This attitude is basically unsound, and leads only to discontent within the customer base.#2 Microsoft holds a monoploy on computer software. Any monoploy will lead to the failure of customer choices driving the market... this is a basic tenant in business that Microsoft has been blissfully ignorant of most of its very short existence. The checks and balances inherant in consumers having choices will only lead to revolt within the customer base.Given your background it's easy to see why you believe MS is not at fault here. You have been indoctrinated to believe that the software is developed, and then the consumer will fall in line. In the short term that may work. But in the long term it is the business equivalent of Russion Roulette. And Microsoft will learn that fact at some point in time. All of the testing you did at MS was defined by MS... not the consumers. All it was is MS making a somewhat educated guess about what should be. Nothing more.I couldn't care less about WHQL standards. They are MS's standards! I've yet to see MS involved in any ISO standards configuration and implementation. Why? Because they want it all their way. They'll readily turn their collective noses up at ISO.Finally, this problem of screen flickering with ATI cards is indeed Microsoft's responsibilty. Because Microsoft was the party bringing the product to market, not ATI. ATI had drivers in place that worked quiet well with a large majority of games throughout the entire beta testing period od FS9. Yet MS failed to properly coordinate it's new product with the established drivers. The priority for them was to hit that July 29 release date. Let ATI provide a fix. Arrogance on the part of MS.Stop viewing the issue from a software guy's perspective. It's business. Simple as that. As a consumer, leave your passion for software development out of it and see it from a consumer's perspective.

Good post Will...I don't want to belittle the ATI issue. I'd be annoyed as heck, but Microsoft IS listening and any comments to the contrary show an ignorance about the development process that amazes me considering the respect I have for some of those making the comments. People seem to think that issues like this move through a testing process like the speed of light. About a quarter of my job involves testing and certifying in-house financial apps for the WAN I run. We have issues that were known before release of our product, uncovered in testing, that we've been trying to get a handle on since. Our in-house team has been at it for several YEARS, and is arguably larger than the MSFS devel team. Our product is as essential to its consumers as FS2004 is, so we had to release it. Had we not, there would have been no more product. No, we don't sell to the public, but we do sell to a board of directors that's just itching to outsource our entire programming team offshore for canned software. Anyone here who wants to argue my knowledge of the process, I'd be glad to take it offline. But suffice it to say, I am SICK AND TIRED of hearing Microshaft this, M$ that, blah blah blah... I think a patch for this and other issues would be a feather in the dev team's cap, but that's not my call. It could very well be a more expensive product if they had to staff in order to fix all the gotchas that show up in almost every piece of software code released.Years ago, I used to work in the hotel industry before I transitioned to IT.... It was an intuitive transition, as technology was being introduced to my industry then and I found I had a knack for getting my arms around the technology. I managed a small resort in California, and a rather unassuming, likeable, and charismatic man showed up at my desk. One of my employees came back and said "I think that's Bill Gates".... I went to the desk, introduced myself, offered some amenities for his room, and apologized for not catching him on my arrival list and giving him the treatment I thought he deserved. His reply--"Please don't do anything. You're treating me exactly as I want, just as well as you do any of your other guests". And no, I don't work for Microsoft, own stock, or any of the garbage I get asked when I share this story....Say what you want about Microsoft, Gates, and the rest, but I consider myself a great judge of people, if nothing else. There's nothing about the way Bill Gates treated me or my staff that makes me believe that he and his company doesn't care. To the contrary, I remember that visit to this day. And I remember the countless times Microsoft reps showed up in my little users group providing free copies of VB, Office, and other products. They were among the few that always accepted our invitations--even though our group met in the basement of one of our member's homes....Anyway, off my soapbox.... Why don't people try working with Microsoft and quit expecting mission critical bug response times for a hobby....-John