I hate to say it this way, but, bottom line, Bill Gates is the richest man in the world thanks to ALL of us out here and HE DOES NOT CARE. PERIOD.2K4 is the LAST Microsoft product I will buy and I will go back to 2K2 when I get the interest again.

"Clearly, these issues were present during the beta stage of the new sim..."Which is why ATI should have fixed it in their drivers before or soon after FS 2004 was released."why didn't Microsoft take the lead and work with their partners to resolve the issues BEFORE taking their customer's money?"Because Microsoft has NOTHING to do with ATI's drivers except for WHQL certification which is done by a whole different branch of MS than the FS development team.What they should do (and probably) did in a case like this, is to inform the hardware manufacturer of the problem and then they will fix it. This is how everyone else does it, even Carmack (Doom3), so why not Microsoft? These issues affect other games and applications as well, so it's in ATI's interest to have those driver issues resolved quickly. Especially since we're dealing with such a basic function here (GDI windows/menus on top of a DirectDraw/3D screen), it's surprising that it is taking so long for ATI to fix it.NVidia's drivers have been THE best for a long time but they are going downhill now with all the image quality hacks, game-specific optimizations, altering of DirectX code, forcing 16/12-bit precision when an applications request full DX9 24-bit precision etc. etc. Eventually all these hacks will begin to "leak" into other games than they were meant for and cause a major headache for driver programmers and consumers alike. Overall, I would actually say ATI has slightly better drivers now, FS2004 issues aside. They certainly have better hardware.

>When will you offer ANYTHING of substance to refute our>perceptions (both of Microsoft... and you)?why should Jim?....you make what you believe to be reality painstakingly clear,and in doing so,insult someone who has valid arguments.i don't think Jim NEEDS to offer you anything other then what you've given him:insulting personal comments,accompanied by your OWN opinion.Jim has stated his opinion repeatedly,and politely.you on the other hand did not.i find it hard to believe you run a business,and if you do,it must surely be a oneman show,as that is the other thing painstakingly clear:YOU,and YOU ALONE are right.and in thinking so,ironically:you are wrong.regards.

>I hate to say it this way, but, bottom line, Bill Gates is>the richest man in the world thanks to ALL of us out here and>HE DOES NOT CARE. PERIOD.>2K4 is the LAST Microsoft product I will buy and I will go>back to 2K2 when I get the interest again.Bill Gates just happens to have funded the largest charitable organization in the world, the Gates Foundation, to the tune of $25 Billion. He has pledged to fund it with most of his remaining fortune. As the largest foundation, it is larger than the other well-known foundations that you may have heard about -- it is abut 10 time the size of The Rockefeller Foundation and about triple the size of the Ford Foundation.The Gates Foundation has provided billions of dollars to support world health initiatives with a focus on saving lives in poorer countries, and funding mass vaccination efforts, as well as research into new ways to combat AIDS, tuberculosis, and malaria.Oh, you meant he doesn't care because Microsoft hasn't fixed ATI's driver problems. Sorry.Don S.

>You assume I'm unhappy with the ATI card. I was referring to FS2K4 - you are obviously unhappy with it - send it back.

Nope... pretty happy with it. Installed easily, runs even better than FS2K2 did on my system. It's not perfect, but I've yet to find any show stoppers.Just curious... how did we get from me not wanting an Nvidia card to not being happy with the sim?

"Just curious... how did we get from me not wanting an Nvidia card to not being happy with the sim?"Might have something to do with the title of the thread. If it needs fixing for you then there must be something wrong with it. Works fine here - quite happy with it.

>Let me point out some basic principles of business to you. #1>Microsoft is not responding to their customers needs... if>they were their customers would know about it. First! >their customers know they respond. It's the people who flame only and never even try to get support that don't (and aren't interested in) know.>Microsoft has a habit of responding to what it wants to>respond to... simple as that. It's a cultural thing with>them. They believe they know more about what the customer>needs than the customer. This attitude is basically unsound,>and leads only to discontent within the customer base.>As the customer is usually hardly computer litterate that customer usually hardly knows what he wants so Microsoft often DOES know better...Simple example, customer complains that his new shiny videocard doesn't work with Flightsim 2004. Techsupport checks it out and finds the card isn't DirectX 9 compatible because of a bug in the driver for that card or its hardware. Tech support KNOWS now that the customer really wants a new driver and/or card, yet the customer thinks he wants a patch to FS.>#2 Microsoft holds a monoploy on computer software. Any>monoploy will lead to the failure of customer choices driving>the market... this is a basic tenant in business that>Microsoft has been blissfully ignorant of most of its very>short existence. The checks and balances inherant in>consumers having choices will only lead to revolt within the>customer base.>hmm, definition of monopoly is that there is only one (1) supplier.There's thousands of suppliers so no monopoly be definition.If Microsoft has a monopoly your last sentence here can impossibly come to pass as there is no choice, it can therefore only happen if Microsoft has no monopoly.As to short history, Microsoft has existed for over 20 years, which is longer than the pittiful existences of most users of these here forums.>Given your background it's easy to see why you believe MS is>not at fault here. You have been indoctrinated to believe>that the software is developed, and then the consumer will>fall in line. In the short term that may work. But in the>long term it is the business equivalent of Russion Roulette. >And Microsoft will learn that fact at some point in time. All>of the testing you did at MS was defined by MS... not the>consumers. All it was is MS making a somewhat educated guess>about what should be. Nothing more.>Ah yes, the great "Microsoft brainwashing" conspiracy at work. Go play elsewhere, Slashbot (a.k.a. victim of the Linux brainwashing).>I couldn't care less about WHQL standards. They are MS's>standards! I've yet to see MS involved in any ISO standards>configuration and implementation. Why? Because they want it>all their way. They'll readily turn their collective noses up>at ISO.>LOL. You haven't even LOOKED at standards have you?Microsoft is in fact heavily involved in many standards bodies including ISO, W3C, OMG, and others. They're involved in defining and refining standards as well as implementing them.Most times they're blamed for not implementing the "standard" it's because the standard changed after their product shipped implementing an earlier version...>Finally, this problem of screen flickering with ATI cards is>indeed Microsoft's responsibilty. Because Microsoft was the>party bringing the product to market, not ATI. ATI had>drivers in place that worked quiet well with a large majority>of games throughout the entire beta testing period od FS9. >Yet MS failed to properly coordinate it's new product with the>established drivers. The priority for them was to hit that>July 29 release date. Let ATI provide a fix. Arrogance on>the part of MS.>The driver is at fault, and the driver is ATIs product.You're willfully failing to see the difference between a DirectX8 game and a DirectX9 game.The problems you describe are caused by ATIs failure to properly implement DirectX9 in their product (yet they say they did implement it).It does not happen with older games that don't rely (as stated in the specs) on DirectX9 being fully implemented.Therefore the problem is between you and ATIs false marketing.>Stop viewing the issue from a software guy's perspective. >It's business. Simple as that. As a consumer, leave your>passion for software development out of it and see it from a>consumer's perspective.yes it's business. And business means you should determine the correct party to blame which you deliberately (probably out of childish jealousy combined with willful ignorance) decide not to do.

>I agree with you John about being more tactful when handling>Microsoft. I just wish we could reach them to work with>them... The silent none responsive treatment isn't good for>both sides. Greg makes a good point in what he said above and>I totally agree...If people were to actually TRY and be CONSTRUCTIVE towards Microsoft they probably would be a lot more responsive.I've worked tech support myself. When I get two support requests coming in, one saying "this and that is happening under such and so circumstances, can you help me?", and the other "your product zuckz bigtime you bunch of A**H**EZ!!!!!" (expletives censored for sensitive ears by me) which do you think gets binned and which gets acted upon?Not only does one support request actually give me a basis to start analysing, it's also not personally insulting.I'd bet that the majority of people who complain here never sent a support request in their life and of those who did the majority were worded like the second one.

>"If this is a bug in Microsoft's product, isn't it>interesting that Nvidia resolved the problem with their latest>drivers.">>Hmmm... interesting logic you're using there. Let's see,>Nvidia fixed the problem, and ATI will be forced to in the>future. Which begs the question... did ATI and nVidia create>the bug? Or Microsoft?>NVidia and ATI of course.Or rather they released something that didn't comply with the (then not yet released) DirectX9 APIs.Once those APIs were released NVidia updated their products to work with those APIs, ATI did not and just changed the box to say they did.

>"No thanks... been there, done that. And not going back any>time soon.">>Well you are obviously not happy with the product so why don't>you return it?>Because he might find it was the card after all, thus taking away his reason to flame his pet hate (iow, Microsoft).Such is the logic of todays kids...

Do you guys feel that FS4K needs a patch?

Back to the original thread topic, looks like it WAS a driver issue all along...http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...d=151376&page=1Fetch the drivers and enjoy!-Germ

Hate to day I told you so. Well, maybe I don't hate to say it. :)I guess maybe a particular someone who said I was a troll and numerous other names may not have been right after all.Jim

"I guess maybe a particular someone who said I was a troll and numerous other names may not have been right after all."Nope... you're still a troll.