I'm really tired of hearing that ATI didn't fix this or didn't fix that. At least they've (ATI) done something, Microsoft on the other hand won't even respond to the millions of request from paying customers about patching their product. Is it easier to slam ATI because we did get somewhat of a response from them versus talking to the wall when dealing with Microsoft. I feel people should redirect their frustration toward Microsoft to fix this and the other many issues people are reporting (dancing mountains, performance with autogen, SDK releases, etc.)... I feel the screen flickering is not an issue ATI should address considering Nividia and ATI video cards were the standard for most flight sim users at the release of FS2k4. What video card did Microsoft use to create and test FS2k4 then, the old Voodoo cards from 3 years ago??? If your testing out a new version of your product that's been on the market for at least 15 years, how could you go this wrong with video card compatibility??? Microsoft knows what we all are currently using if they read these forums like so many of you have stated... We should not have had a flickering issue to begin with and Nividia/ATI hardware should have worked correctly with FS two months ago.If ATI does resolve all the display issues then great but Microsoft still owes us what they gave FS2000, a patch and/or service pak. Release the SDK's....... It almost seems Redmond would be happier developing FS for an XBOX or Playstation (another users request) versus a PC. To release a product and not offer any other support for it is no better than what they do for their counsel games. Bear in mind I hope this is not a hidden agenda with the boys/girls up in Redmond but support from them has not been looking so good. I'd put Microsoft on the same level as payware developers that don't support their addon releases (I'll leave the names to myself). The only support for FS2k4 that we have received thus far is from our own community. I don't think anyone has heard a real word from Microsoft about anything since FS2k4's release (please correct me if I'm wrong) and I'm not talking about the technet acknowledgement of problems but rather true support...

Yep; MS knowingly released a broken product. ATI has fixed all from what I understand other than the blinking menus. That issue must have been more of a problem to solve; else they would have fixed it too. Better to get what we got though than have the sim delayed till xmas.

"Better to get what we got though than have the sim delayed till xmas."Sorry, BigShot, I can't agree with this. Waiting until Christmas wouldn't have made a difference... MS still would have released the sim with these (and other) issues.It's common in the software biz to release a product and simply add a section to the readme that outlines known issues with some hardware. That's it... that's the developer's solution for not dealing with issues. Fact of the matter is MS clearly had to know about this problem with ATI drivers, but chose to sluff off on them the job of fixing it (at ATI's expense).The difference between MSFS and other games is that MS chooses to be silent and not respond to its customer's plights. They own a monopoly in the software biz, so why should they worry about being responsive to the customer. We can take what they give us, or get out of town. Can you say "Smooth weather transition"? Was supposed to be taken care of in this iteration.. but those instant changes are still there. And they'll leave it to the add-on folks to fix it, while at the same time waiting to deliver the SDK's that would make it easier to fix.The behemoth simply chooses to not respond to the needs of its customers. History has taught me that the best way to bring someone like that around is to take his money. As in "Class Action" litigation. Would make a bunch of lawyers rich, but at the same time make the point that folks are tired of MS's business practices.I'm really fed up with the way they treat all their customers. It's a travesty in the modern business world.

The problem is with ATIs broken implementation of DirectX 9, therefore it's ATIs responsibility.As so many people you blame Microsoft for things you don't understand the first thing of it seems.

"The problem is with ATIs broken implementation of DirectX 9, therefore it's ATIs responsibility."And how did you arrive at that conclusion? If "ATI's broken implementation of DirectX 9" were the issue, one would think that ATI cards would have all kinds of problems with other games that use DX9 (or parts thereof... like FS9).Please present your supporting eveidence.And while you're at it, please explain the smooth weather transitions issue. And how a developer can leave so much for add-on developers to fix, yet not release the SDK's at the same time they begin selling the product.

Well, I guess from your standpoint you have a defective product so you will no doubt be returning it to Microsoft for a full refund - eh?David

Ooh man I'm probably going to get my A** flamed like standing in back of an F-16 w full AB but here goes. Let me preface my comments by saying I have no love affair with MS, Mr. Gates or anyone else affiliated with the giant. These are my opinions only and like anything else should be taken with a grain of salt..........On with the show :)>"Better to get what we got though than have the sim delayed>till xmas."Probably right there Bigs and would have to agree with you. MS probably got tired of hearing simmers whining like kids on a long trip "Are we there yet", "Whens FS2K4 Coming". ;)>Sorry, BigShot, I can't agree with this. Waiting until>Christmas wouldn't have made a difference... MS still would>have released the sim with these (and other) issues.Since when did you become Miss Cleo?. How do we know this. Do you know Mr. Bill personally? Say hello for me. :) Now wouldn't you feel a little dumb if , and that's a big if a patch is released by December fixing most/all of the issues we have? Same thing as waiting till X-mas no?>It's common in the software biz to release a product and>simply add a section to the readme that outlines known issues>with some hardware. That's it... that's the developer's>solution for not dealing with issues. Fact of the matter is>MS clearly had to know about this problem with ATI drivers,>but chose to sluff off on them the job of fixing it (at ATI's>expense).First it's common knowledge that this same thing also occurs in the hardware business. Hardware makers releasing a product that may benchmark very well but is either using a form of cheating or doesn't really perform well in real world apps.(Can you say the First run of FX cards). Seeing as you seem to be psychic from your above statement might it be possible that ATI is refusing to write drivers that may impact performance in a lot of other applications just to appease us whining Simmers. God no, blame someone other than the almighty MS or Mr. Bill G., Yeah Right. Second, are you forgetting the issues w Nvidia based cards and the sim? I geuss they (MS) are fixing the problems for NV owners and not leaving it up to or sluffing it off to them as you put it.>The difference between MSFS and other games is that MS chooses>to be silent and not respond to its customer's plights. They>own a monopoly in the software biz, so why should they worry>about being responsive to the customer. We can take what they>give us, or get out of town. Can you say "Smooth weather>transition"? Was supposed to be taken care of in this>iteration.. but those instant changes are still there. And>they'll leave it to the add-on folks to fix it, while at the>same time waiting to deliver the SDK's that would make it>easier to fix.God I'm so tired of the old MS has a monopoly mentality. To quote an old commercial...STOP THE INSANITY!! Can you say Linux? How about no less than 3-4 different FS not produced by MS. Yeah they used to have your so called monopoly but those days are gone. I can say smooth weather transition can you. Runs fine on my rig. Maybe the occasional burp but lets be reasonable here. About the only thing MS has ever dropped the ball on was ME and lord knows they should have. What a POS OS that was, no offense to those that are running it but...Oh never mind. Talk about a piece of software that never should have made it out alive. And I mean my god...I mean FS COF has only been out what 3 months??>The behemoth simply chooses to not respond to the needs of its>customers. History has taught me that the best way to bring>someone like that around is to take his money. As in "Class>Action" litigation. Would make a bunch of lawyers rich, but>at the same time make the point that folks are tired of MS's>business practices.History should have also taught you that the bigger a company is the harder they are to hurt. Hell even the US Govt had a hard time doing it and you think that RIGHT NOW, a few thousand, if you can get that many, FSimmers are going to make them jump into action? Maybe in a few months if nothing is done yeah but there argument will be.. Were aware of the issues and working to solve them but these things take time. And you know what the courts will bye it and we'll all be left sitting here with our **** in our hands waiting for a fix. You really want to do something creative? How about a coordinated mass mailing to the MS Tech support site. One of us draft up a good Email stating our case and our intended actions should nothing be done in a reasonable amount of time and at the same time all on the same day let them go. Can you say legal DOS. Costs nothing and right now it's about the only leg you have to stand on that's firmly planted. Besides...Who the hell wants to make the LAwyers any richer?? Lol.>I'm really fed up with the way they treat all their customers.> It's a travesty in the modern business world.Your right it is and yet you still went out and bought the sim, run some form of a Windows OS on your machine and are looking at this through an MS browser so whats your point. If you were that fed up you'd be running Linux, Playing X-plane and be looking at this on Netscape. :)Maybe I have been to harsh but MY GOD!! The whining around here lately makes me think I'm in a nursery school. Stop the BIT***** and let's do some constructive to solve the problem. I almost want to ask if all you guys want some cheese with that whine ;)If we're going to do it let's do it right.Hell I'll even write the letter.No offense honestly meant Soar, I think you just wound up being the straw that broke this camels back. My apologies if I hurt or offended you in any way. BobbyNow give me a second to don my Fire Retardent suit and helmet and I'll be Good to Go :)

>"The problem is with ATIs broken implementation of DirectX 9,>therefore it's ATIs responsibility.">>And how did you arrive at that conclusion? If "ATI's broken>implementation of DirectX 9" were the issue, one would think>that ATI cards would have all kinds of problems with other>games that use DX9 (or parts thereof... like FS9).>>Please present your supporting eveidence.>>And while you're at it, please explain the smooth weather>transitions issue. And how a developer can leave so much for>add-on developers to fix, yet not release the SDK's at the>same time they begin selling the product.Ah......Dont take into account JWENTING has to say about MS issues he seems to have a bias towards the developers of many product just do a search in many of the other payware forums and you will see.I think it would be great if those who have a BEEF against MS and MSFS9 could come out to Redmond and walk the sidewalks for a couple of days at least then it would be harder for them to ignore us.....Ill even apply for a protest permit at Redmond city hall.MS promised us a fix for FS2002 and then recanted....REMEMBER.Better yet we could just protest with our pocketbooks in 2006.The 3.8s seem to give me 4 to 5 frames boost and have ended to a great degree the slideshow effect on final to many of the default airports as well as some of my Simflyers.Maybe We Should Have the Govenator(Arnold)to call MS on our behalf.Regards

>The problem is with ATIs broken implementation of DirectX 9,>therefore it's ATIs responsibility.>>As so many people you blame Microsoft for things you don't>understand the first thing of it seems.is it?....

"Well, I guess from your standpoint you have a defective product so you will no doubt be returning it to Microsoft for a full refund - eh?"And which product would that be, David? The ATI card that works perfectly well in numerous other games, or FS9?We're not talking here about returning products... the issue is support. Or lack thereof. And what seems to be a complete refusal to acknowledge their customers concerns and plights. Their solution is to let others fix the problems.

Naw, I'm not offended, Bobby. Some of your posts I read and shake my head with a chuckle, some I find useful. Your previous post falls in the former category.You should stop and consider the big picture... us simmers are just a small piece of MS's action. With my class action comment I was referring to the ENTIRE captured audience held by MS. Things like seemingly weekly security updates for XP that they originally advertised as the most secure OS ever made. And would you care to explain to all the XP users why there are so many security holes in XP... as in MS new what holes they were leaving when they made the product. And why?Linux certainly seems a nice alternative... of course we could easily list all the current applications produced by independent developers that work on that OS. It's a rather short list... but growing by the day. Still not there yet, though, for the average business or advanced personal user.Sorry, but your comment about hardware developers using benchmark cheats doesn't apply here. That's a totally different discussion. We're talking here about support, or lack thereof.I'm no Miss Cleo... just one who has spent a ton of money on MS products over the years. Because they captured the market (that's just a nice way of saying "monopoly"). And I'm growing increasingly frustrated with their business practices. But like everyone else, I'm stuck with them until they fall from their perch.

When ever I read these heated postings I always think of the comic book salesman from the tv show The Simpsons.

______________________________________Since when did you become Miss Cleo?. ______________________________________Alright, Who's Miss Cleo?? }(

>Naw, I'm not offended, Bobby. Some of your posts I read and>shake my head with a chuckle, some I find useful. Your>previous post falls in the former category.Well I hope there are more instances of the useful ones.>You should stop and consider the big picture... us simmers are>just a small piece of MS's action. With my class action>comment I was referring to the ENTIRE captured audience held>by MS. Things like seemingly weekly security updates for XP>that they originally advertised as the most secure OS ever>made. And would you care to explain to all the XP users why>there are so many security holes in XP... as in MS new what>holes they were leaving when they made the product. And why?Dam, have to disagree with you on this one here now too. ;)How many people do you think are currently running XP?. How many people do you think spend their wasteful days trying to hack into those machines running XP? 50 Million lines of code and you want a perfect product right out the door? LoLoLol.You say you've bought MS products for years. And you still don't realize that the general public is the biggest beta tester out there? It's been that way for years with MS and it isn't going to change until we change. The sad part is....It's never going to change. And part of that is becuase we as users have to come to accept the relese of a product follwedby updates and patches. I'm sorry Greg but that is, was and always will be part of this wonderful world of computing.>Linux certainly seems a nice alternative... of course we could>easily list all the current applications produced by>independent developers that work on that OS. It's a rather>short list... but growing by the day. Still not there yet,>though, for the average business or advanced personal user.Couldn't have said it better so I won't. :)>Sorry, but your comment about hardware developers using>benchmark cheats doesn't apply here. That's a totally>different discussion. We're talking here about support, or>lack thereof.My point was to show how flawed products are released to the public wether they are worthy or not and that it happens on both the hardware and software side of the field so it's not that totally different a field. Don't you get tired of the almost weekly Det. updates touting better this or greater that or this issue fixed or that issue fixed. Or do you own a Radeon? Lol>I'm no Miss Cleo... just one who has spent a ton of money on>MS products over the years. Because they captured the market>(that's just a nice way of saying "monopoly"). And I'm>growing increasingly frustrated with their business practices.> But like everyone else, I'm stuck with them until they fall>from their perch.Is it capturing the market as you say or just the fact that noone stepped up to the plate to offer a viable alternative?. Are we to blame Mr. Gates for what he has done or should we blame others for not giving him any competition? You may want to suck it up a tad though as I feel you, me and everyone else is going to be stuck with MS for a long time to come. That "Perch" is way to wide for them to fall off of any time soon. :(But thank for taking my rant above with a grain of salt. Your a good sport. Just to prove I'm not an MS lover please let me know if you intend to do something along the lines of a CA suit or perhaps the bulk E-Mail I spoke of above. I'll be one of the first in line.Have a good one Greg !Bobby

Heated?? Where is it becoming heated? Hell I took my suit off ;)Bobby