I've had enough. Bye.

:Kiss::dance:--

Ugh. Not exactly the intellectual debate I was hoping to have. I've had enough. Bye.

Finally, we both agree on something. It certainly is not an intellectual debate when you have been given three absolute, undeniable facts that prove your perception of female aviators wrong, yet choose to ignore them.For those that don't know what I'm referring to. The first is that JoeInCt seems to think there are "virtually no" women in the hobby. That was proven wrong with a short list of names, and of course common sense. The more I research the matter, the more women I find in our hobby. I just got a PM from another staffer who tells me his girlfriend uses FS9 quite regularly as she is working towards her PPL.The next two facts that were ignored are statistical reports, one of which comes from a military commission that annually reports on women in the military, specifically Naval aviators in this case. And the other was a report attached to the U.S. House bill from this past year in regards to the Buffalo accident, which led to the whole debate over sleep deprivation. Both statistical reports show that there is absolutely no relation to aviation safety and the gender of the pilot. Not a single shred of evidence suggests that women are more prone to aircraft accidents than men.However, even though I still see your name in this thread, since you waved bye, I guess that ends the debate. Make sure to let me know when Tom pulls my mod status over doing the right thing. And one last thing. Though I admit in advance that I could be wrong, I get the impression that you would not have been so quick to make such ridiculous statements had the topic been about black or hispanic pilots. I doubt you'd feel as comfortable in posting the same nonsense regarding British pilots or German pilots. It seems as though you simply chose what you perceived to be a soft target to spew hate and prejudice, and that's not gonna fly on my watch.

I am not 'piling on'. The prime point in your original post was that it was 'corny' of MS to include women instructors voices. That argument was repeatedly successfully refuted with numerous examples, in fact lots of people including me, noted that there are indeed women members of Avsim and many fine women aviators out there in the real world of aviation too. I gave you some examples of both, which should be enough reason to not consider it 'corny'.That point proven, the subject then diverted somewhat, resulting in yourself 'piling on' someone who is in no position to defend themselves (having been killed in a crash), in order to use them as an example that somehow is representative of women pilots being incapable of handling aircraft. This was a different point entirely from the original post and not really relevant to MS including a woman voice actor for their new sim, but since the point is raised, to discuss it anyway...You rather selectively misrepresent Kara Hultgreen's fatal crash as being purely pilot error, which it simply was not. It is true that it was an accident which was indeed likely exacerbated by some piloting errors, but everyone who watches the footage of Kara Hultgreen's crash must surely be aware that the landing officer on the radio tells her to raise the gear and add power, which she does. But with a failed engine (granted, possibly caused by her overuse of the rudder), the addition of single engine asymmetric power at low speed makes the aircraft yaw terribly and causes it to aysmmetrically stall and autorotate. So that part of events, and the subsequent crash was caused not by pilot error, but by Kara following instructions from the flight deck when in an emergency situation and under pressure. But do we hear anyone say that men should not be talking F-14s down, or using that as an example of male incompetence? No we don't. Nor did we hear the guy on the radio tell her to bang out in a timely fashion either, which would have surely saved her life. Is the focus on him? no it isn't, and nor should it be, but I'm sure you get the point.Now, nbody will argue that there are situations where ill-advised political correctness does sometimes lead to people being pushed into roles for which they are not suitable, and it can indeed lead to putting people in situations for which they are not suited. I completely agree with you that this is a bad thing to do. However...Like the Tuskegee Airmen before her, Kara had to push to make a change, and unfortunately when someone is in that position, anything which does go wrong is immediately placed under a microscope. When any Tuskegee Airman screwed up for whatever reason, be it their fault or not, racists were quick to cite it as an example of how black men could not fly aeroplanes, which of course was nonsense. So you can doubtless understand the revulsion many feel when a similar situation is played out with regard to women as a result of Kara having an accident, which as noted, was not entirely down to her errors alone. Landing a big jet on a carrier is not easy, accidents can and do happen, it's as simple as that.So citing Kara Hultgreen as the benchmark example of a phenomenon is really not very fair at all, nor especially accurate. The fact is, Kara was a pilot who had an accident when performing a difficult task, as other pilots have also been unfortunate enough to do, but she was a pioneer and a brave lady. Now being brave and pioneering might not be enough to always get you through, but it's a fact that Kara had demonstrated quite some flying skill previously, including landing an A-6 which a failed right main undercarriage and getting it down remarkably undamaged. From this we can surmise that she had some bad luck and got away with it once through skill, but unfortunately jet fighters are unforgiving things when bad luck calls. That is all it was, and in no way representative of her having a lack of skill or competence, particularly since it seems she had demonstrated just how much skill she had on previous occasions. She made a mistake, and it turned out to be a costly one, but if you imagine that all the men on that carrier flying aeroplanes had never made a mistake and she is alone in having done so, then I'm guessing you'd be well wide of the mark, but of course not being pioneers for their sex, such errors will not find themselves under the microscope.Kara was incredibly brave to take on the mantle of pushing forward on the ragged edge for her fellow women, and you do her a massive disservice to lower such efforts to focus on the tragic consequences of an error which I bet half the pilots on this forum have also made at some point, but just been lucky enough to get away with it on the day.Al

Has the original thead in Flight been deleted - I can't find it?

Has the original thead in Flight been deleted - I can't find it?

Yes, at least deleted from view. I kept it so that Tom could see it should he question why it had to be removed, but there won't be any question if he chooses to view the thread.

This thread pretty much confirms Tom's comments (and he comments often) that people don't appreciate the work the mods do here. They volunteer their time. They don't get paid. Believe me, I know. That Tom just doesn't give up and close the site down--well he might do that to cool tempers off. Mod bashing is a great sport. Seems to be popular all over the web. Are mods perfect? No. Can they make mistakes? Yes. People seem to come in here wanting a black and white, take it or leave it forum. As long as that goes on, I see more and more forums going away. You make the choice people. If you keep trying to pick sides rather than finding ways to bring things to closure. you will doom your own hobby. Even the most simple post has to be a debate so people can show off their macho side for all the world to see. I sense the web has become a place for frustrated people who lack the courage to display their feelings in the open. If you want to send me a PM, I can help you find that courage. It's pretty simple--quit your bellyachin' and get along.John

Joel,"Ugh. Not exactly the intellectual debate I was hoping to have. I've had enough. Bye"You weren't looking for an intellectual debate, you were trolling. Let me put you straight... There is no such thing as free speach in this forum, period. You were advised of that when you signed up to access this system. You were also informed that we have a "1 Strike" and you are out rule. More often than not, we allow two or even three strikes. As Jeremy and others have pointed out, I have only one good nerve and you have done all that needs to be done to have plucked it. As for your views on women in aviation and the specious "facts" that you seem to want to spout, there are so many examples to show how far off base you are as to make you look silly. That includes a key note speaker at an AVSIM convention who led the Boeing team to extend the range of the B777. She finally proved her team had succeeded by flying a 777ER from Hong Kong direct to London, Heathrow, over Canada (i.e., the wrong way round). So, in my opinion, and others it seems, you are trolling. And that violates our terms of use. You now know what will be the outcome of this.And, just to ensure you fully understand... The moderators here have my and our senior staff's total trust in their judgement and their ability to manage these forums as our rules require. No disgruntled user is going to change that. Period.This topic is now locked and JoelNct is now reading only.