Virtuali - A Rant

[kand 205]

Wow... is all I can say.I just wonder what Tom'll say, if anything.

dgpilot1 your banned and this thread is locked! :(

[kvk1 2]

I have no dog in this fight.But: this was/is the greatest example in patience and objectivity from the support side of any software/product/developer/forum I have ever seen.Especially considering it's like Lord of the Flies in here right now.Umberto, my hats off to you.

[CFIJose 5,485]

I detest the system too. But, I love FSDT airports and Umberto has always been there to help.

[Alan_A 1,650]

Following Tom's description on those email, it appear that FSX quit to desktop without any error message just after the splash screen. This happens only in one situation: the Addon Manager .dll doesn't match with its other support files it comes with. Since they are all downloaded together, it's normally not possible, unless under very rare circumstances (like internet connection dropping exactly in the middle) to get mixed-up version.UNLESS, "something" is blocking the .dll download, and let it pass the other files, ending up in a mixed-up situation. This can be either an antivirus or a firewall, or any other thing that is able to block a download.

This neatly describes the problem I was having, and provides a clue about how to track it down. Thanks. Like others here, I appreciate your continued (extreme) patience in this thread. Nice to see some factual information emerging through all the noise and smoke...It still seems to me that this is a very complex system with lots of moving parts (meaning, opportunities for things to go wrong). But then, I'm biased against complexity, being, after all, a virtual Cub driver, as the banner suggests.I'll review my event logs and see if I can get a better handle on what my problem was.

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Amir,I will respond to you, and then to some of the other posts in this thread.Simply stated, I did not receive your third message. I don't know what happened to it, and I don't have a copy of it in my email inbox (I keep all my email, except junk, and have done so for years). You accuse me of lying, but from my perspective I did not get support when the only suggested fix, that I did receive, further broke FSX and turned a previously perfectly operating add on to junk. Had I received your third email, I certainly would have responded as well as attempting any fix you suggested. But, I will tell you something that you should take to heart; I do not take kindly to being called a liar. If you knew what I did in real life, you would not even cosider using that term. Please do not do that again here to me or anyone else.I would also point out, emphatically, that I deliberately did not name the scenery or a/c producers; you just confirmed it for everyone yourself. Please go back and read my originall message and the follow-up message that I have posted in this thread. I did name Virtuali because it appeared to be the source of the problems. At no time did I name you, your product, or QW for that matter. Finally, though I do appreciate the refund, I did not ask for it. I simply wanted help in fixing what appeared to be solvable problem. Reading Umberto's post below, it is now apparent that an outdated download may have been the culprit. How did that happen? This is exactly the reason for my original post - to control stuff being downloaded to my system without my consent or prior knowledge. To everyone else; as the AVSIM staff can attest to, I am pretty busy. I travel alot and when I do have free time, I like to spend it with family or my simulation hobby. I usually barely have time to read the forums here, let alone starting a topic or responding to one. So, my apologies for taking so long to respond.Someone posted that given my position in the community, I should not post as I have in this thread. I don't know what that means, frankly. Does it mean that I don't get to express my frustrations, ask for help, have anyting to say about a product? Sorry, for the last 14 years, it has been a rare event for me to publically question a product and its performance, positively or negatively. I am a simmer first and foremost. I have as much right to praise or pillage a product as anyone. If more weight is attached to my opinion because of AVSIM, so be it. I can't change that. I will not however hesitate to post my opinion, good or bad, when I think the situation warrants it. Remember, I did not point fingers at anyone but Virtuali. My entire point in opening this thread was to state clearly my frustration with programs that download stuff without my agreement to do so.Umberto, like so many others here, I am impressed with the temperment, patience and calm that you have dealt with the posters, including me, in this thread. I will read all of your posts in more detail as I can. I will then contact you to see if we can't get this taken care of. I see that you have agreed that putting a download "yes or no" function is something that you will do. Thank you for doing that. I do think that you need to somehow ensure that older "updates" are not written over newer ones, as apparently happened in my case.

You know, after launching KSFO as my first product, I expected to run into some trouble with a few users to get it working, but I never expected this. Let me first tell you, and everyone else here on AVSIM that your statement, Tom, is a complete lie. And on top of it.. to post a rant on AVSIM forum telling users that you received "No Support" and just a refund, you have no idea how damaging you've been to FlightBeam especially as a new FS developer.Each and every single time you sent a support request to me, I promptly replied with instructions to fix with a request to follow up with me. Since you made this so public and decided to tell everyone that you received "no support"... I will post our support correspondence right here so everyone can see for themselves. ---TOM:I purchased KSFO for FSX this last Saturday. My order number is xxxxxxxxxx. I installed it and have not been able to get it to show the terminals. It shows the gateways, floating off the ground, but no terminals. None. It shows floating lamp posts as well. I have tried various approaches to fix this, including setting all my sliders to the right, going with your recommended settings, etc. I run all of the Blueprint airports without issue as well a number of Aerosoft airports like mega DE Gaulle, mega London, mega Frankfurt, and others without issues.Can someone advise me on how to rectify this?------My support response, with 2 HOURS:Hello Tom, Sorry to hear you're having trouble. I've had one other customer with this problem and it was solved by installing the latest addon-manager which was updated saturday-sunday. http://www.virtualis...donmanagerX.exeJust to be safe, I would re-install KSFO as well by re-downloading the same link, I posted an update over the weekend.http://www.flightbea...o_fsx_setup.exePlease let me know if this solved your problem, or if you still have trouble.-------A day later I get this response from you:-----I attempted to reply to your email earlier to me regarding the "fix" link you sent me. The mail bounced back. If you are going to respond to people and encourage them to get back with you, that is pretty aggravating when the very email you do that with is an address that doesn't work. Here is what I attempted to send you:That is because you replied to an auto reply ticket system, there is a reason I use the ticket system, so I can easily track all requests and respond promptly rather than replying to hundreds of email threads. I installed the new file you sent me the link to. Not only did it not fix the problem with no terminals, floating jet ways and light poles; in fact, it blew up my FSX. I had flown a flight just before installing your addonmanager and FSX was perfect in every way. Install the manger and now I cannot get FSX to go beyond about 1 minute into the splash screen and then FSX dies. Just disappears. I have removed the manager, I have cleaned the registery, I removed the QW757.gua entry in the fsx.cfg, restarted the computer and attempted to start up FSX five or six times. Same issue; FSX just dies and disappears - nothing in the task manager or service that are recognizable. Needless to say, what started out as a simple scenery install has now totally screwed up my system. If I have to wipe out FSX and start over again with all my add-on's, I am going to be a very unhappy person. And why would your fix have anything to do with the QW757, which has worked for me flawlessly??Do you have any advice short of reloading FSX to fix this?Tom AllensworthAVSIM Online ---------------------My support response, immediately: Hi Tom, Again I'm sorry to hear what has happened. I'm emailing you directly now rather than through the ticket system so you don't have to go through it. The ticket system simply allows me to track issues better rather than numerous email threads. Lets start with giving you a refund and fixing your FSX. Lets clear some things up first. I can assure you that if this was a problem with my scenery I'd have people with pitchforks chasing me. You are the only one that has had this problem. Addon Manager is created by FSDreamTeam, not flightbeam. Every single aspect of that program is managed by them, and they have thousands and thousands of users. Additionally, I don't even own or have anything to do with QW757. Step one, rename your FSX.CFG to FSX.old, this will allow FSX to rebuild the CFG file. Please do this as a first step and see if FSX starts. Please follow up to this and let me know if this works, then we'll go from there. Mir --------------I never got a response from you. Even though I clearly said "PLEASE FOLLOW UP TO THIS". To sit here and tell everyone that you got no help is downright ridiculous. It may be easy to bash other developers who have a multitude of products to support them, I just have ONE introductory scene which has been getting slaughtered by all this BS. Thanks very much. Let me also note that I gave you a refund out of pure courtesy. It doesn't de-activate the product, or end the support I was giving. I was trying to help so you could get it working and giving you a refund at the same time for your initial troubles. Un-fricking-believable

[jordanal 70]

Jim - would you pass the popcorn please.... :(

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Jim - would you pass the popcorn please.... :(

What is the purpose of a post like this? Really, I want to understand what lies behind this message that it requires you to waste the time to post it.

[JSkorna 137]

Sorry Al, I ran out a few pages back!It means this has been quite a show to watch, better than anything on TV including soap operas or any movie could ever be.

[mgh 89]

The addon manager wasn't outdated and wasn't a "broken" version in any way. The version that came with KSFO when it was released was already the correct one right from the start but, I hadn't updated the Stand-Alone version on our website to include support for Flightbeam KSFO, but that couldn't create any crashes: it would simply resulted that, someone installing KSFO and then installing the Stand-Alone Addon Manager immediately after that, would not see KSFO anymore in the menu, but FSX wouldn't crash because of that, and it would been fixed by reinstalling KSFO anyway. This was fixed a few hours after KSFO was released so, it shouldn't have created too much trouble, and it wouldn't crash FSX in any case.

Your definition of not "broken" differs from mine.

[SimNutt 0]

I have FSDT's KORD, and the only complaint I have of it, is that most of the buildings, and terminals disappear during replay. Sometimes I like to scope out my landings, and check out the surrounding scenery. Stuff like that.I also am not a big fan of Virtuali, but what can you do. If you want FSDT's airports, I guess you just have to deal with it. Although I find myself shying away from FSDT's airports, and looking elsewhere for my scenery addons!Fly Tampa comes to mind, and they are hassle free. I would venture to say that the vast majority of us Flight Simmers are honest and paying customers. I understand that some sales may be lost to piracy. I am also curious as to how many sales are lost to consumers like me who refuse to purchase a certain addon because of the extra hassle, or there anti piracy measures?Best regards,Chris

[JSkorna 137]

Very few Chris, very few.

[cmpbellsjc 2,963]

I have FSDT's KORD, and the only complaint I have of it, is that most of the buildings, and terminals disappear during replay. Sometimes I like to scope out my landings, and check out the surrounding scenery. Stuff like that.

Use the freeware FSRecorder and the buildings wont disappear. It's much better than the replay function in FSX anyway.

I also am not a big fan of Virtuali, but what can you do. If you want FSDT's airports, I guess you just have to deal with it. Although I find myself shying away from FSDT's airports, and looking elsewhere for my scenery addons!Fly Tampa comes to mind, and they are hassle free. I would venture to say that the vast majority of us Flight Simmers are honest and paying customers. I understand that some sales may be lost to piracy. I am also curious as to how many sales are lost to consumers like me who refuse to purchase a certain addon because of the extra hassle, or there anti piracy measures?Best regards,Chris

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, I've used these FSDT airports for years now and dont see what the "extra hassle" is that you refer to. Its as easy to install as anything else. Download it, install it, then go fly? How much easier can that be? Sure, a couple folks have an issue pop up here and there, but if you go check the FlyTampa or Aerosoft forums, you will see that even their customers sometime have issues with new products they install. Same could be said for just about any addon you buy for FSX whether is has anti theft measures built into it or not.

Very few Chris, very few.

I agree, in the grand scheme of things, I think only a hand full of people make an issue out of it. If it was that big of a deal FSDT's forums would be flooded daily with cries for help due to Addon Manager and FSDT probably wouldn't even be in business any longer.

[virtuali 4,421]

Reading Umberto's post below, it is now apparent that an outdated download may have been the culprit. How did that happen?

Sorry, but that's not what really happened. Please, understand I'm only trying to explain what happened, because is still something I can't vouch for sure, surely not without being able to check the files involved, as they were/are on your system, I can only derive from your descriptions.Even if we had an outdated Stand-Alone Addon manager for a few hours after KSFO was released, this could not cause an FSX crash at start. The only thing it did, it would make KSFO disappear, but FSX would ran fine otherwise, because it was the same Addon Manager we were using until the day before KSFO came out, it was simply missing KSFO from the list of available sceneries.However, you said your KSFO was already not visible *before* downloading the Stand-Alone Addon Manager (this was suggest to you by Amir after you reported him of not being able to see the scenery), this means this wasn't the reason for a missing KSFO.

This is exactly the reason for my original post - to control stuff being downloaded to my system without my consent or prior knowledge.

The only thing that was downloaded without your consent was the QW757.GAU, and this happened when you downloaded the Stand-Alone Addon Manager, not KSFO. Even if the Stand-Alone Addon Manager was missing of support for KSFO, it wouldn't affect FSX or the QW757 in any way, and the QW757 gauge that was downloaded was not the problem either because, if you were already using their SP2, the downloaded gauge was exactly the same version you already had before.What REALLY happened, instead, it's not the downloads and not the outdated Addon Manager without KSFO.It's simply the fact that, the correct and entirely up to date Addon Manager which was included with KSFO, didn't work for some reason on your system, and that resulted in no scenery visible, and if I follow your initial report, you said you uninstalled KSFO.However, being now in a situation of a non-working Addon Manager, if you tried your QW757 at that time, it would resulted in a quit to desktop when selecting the airplane, because that's what's supposed to be happening if there's no Addon Manager loaded. At that time, you FSX still worked, just not the Addon Manager and surely not the QW757.Then, you say after you downloaded the Stand-Alone Addon Manager, you ended up with a non-working FSX, which quits on startup. Something must have happened here because, the only effect the download of the Stand-Alone Addon Manager without KSFO should have made, is that you wouldn't see KSFO in the available sceneries so, if you reinstalled it, it would't show up.But your FSX shouldn't have been affect at all, since you were just downloading the same version which everybody used until the day before KSFO came out.As I've said, that's not supposed to be happening, unless either you are *very* unlucky, and the internet connection drops exactly in the middle of downloading the Addon Manager files, which means some of them might be missing or corrupted OR something else, like an antivirus or a similar product, blocked the download of just the .dll, resulting in a mix-up version, which also result in FSX quitting at start. You said you didn't had an antivirus, perhaps you really got a corrupted or mixed-up download somehow, which really is something I never seen before.Of course, during the Stand-Alone Addon Manager installation, you noticed it was also downloading the QW gauge, so you associated this being part of the problem, but that download didn't had anything to do with this, and it was very likely the same file you already had. Even if you already had the current version of the installer, which now asks first to update the Gauges, it wouldn't have changed anything for your issue, which was really a problem of somehow ending up with a mixed-up version, which is not supposed to be happening under normal conditions.Of course, if you contacted me with that description of the problem (FSX quits on start), I would surely recognize the problem, and gave you the following suggestions:- FIX your FSX startup, done by using the Unisntaller and replying YES to the question about removing the Addon Manager- Check the files you got, and probably remove them and having you reinstall the Addon Manager, this would likely have solved the problem of getting corrupted files.

Umberto, like so many others here, I am impressed with the temperment, patience and calm that you have dealt with the posters, including me, in this thread. I will read all of your posts in more detail as I can. I will then contact you to see if we can't get this taken care of. I see that you have agreed that putting a download "yes or no" function is something that you will do. Thank you for doing that. I do think that you need to somehow ensure that older "updates" are not written over newer ones, as apparently happened in my case.

Thank you for the comment, I'm always trying to explain as best as I can why things are happening, because it's the only thing that's useful for everyone.And yes, I agree it's a good suggestion anyway to ask for a download of the Gauges first, because it might be puzzling if it happens, even if it really wasn't the problem in your case. So I've added it already. BTW, all our installers always used both file version and date checks which means, every single file is checked for the embedded version (.dll and .exe files usually have them) and if there's no version included, is checked for date so, if you run an installer that contains files with a old version or an older date, and there are newer versions of the same files already installed, they will not be overwritten. This can be noticed by reinstalling the same product twice in a row without uninstalling it: the 2nd installation is *way* faster, because all the files are already there.In any case, feel free to contact me whenever you want, we'll surely find a way to undertand why the Addon Manager didn't work on your system.

[JSkorna 137]

Great to see that the developers in this thread have offered to almost do anything for the OP, have clearly answered everything possible, and yet nothing has changed.

[virtuali 4,421]

Great to see that the developers in this thread have offered to almost do anything for the OP, have clearly answered everything possible, and yet nothing has changed.

Well, it's not that bad, I think it was really something the whole discussion stayed within civil boundaries, which is quite a feat in itself, considering how long it lasted and how easily threads like this usually derail into flame wars.I'm fairly sympathetic towards Tom (having FSX stop working is surely not a good experience), regardless of the fact he should probably tried getting in touch with me as soon as things started to act strange, but that's not really his fault: I need to find ways to make even the extremely unlikely outcomes like the one that likely affected him (mixed up files, probably a corrupted download, since he said he doesn't use an antivirus), changing from being "extremely unlikely" to simply "can't happen", although such goal is always very difficult do reach with software.I'm sure many that participated or simply lurked the thread, have now a better understanding of what we do and why, and maybe I've contributed to dispel some unnecessary fears, since I'm fairly happy to see that some users who initially had a very strong opposition towards our stuff, were fair enough to admit their idea has somewhat improved along the discussion, so that was a good result in any case.In any case, I would also like to add that I try to serve all our customers in the same way, it's not that Tom got any more attention, because he's the head of Avsim. Today, while this discussion was still ongoing, I had a customer with an longstanding issue, not related to the Addon Manager, but rather the scenery.cfg, which I couldn't really understand on the forum, so we had an appointment, and I've connected to his machine with a remote access program, to check it personally, and the problem was solved. Not that I'm the only one doing this, I know the QW folks also offer this kind of service, when needed.